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'40's White Seat Caning?

Discussion in 'Wood and Canvas' started by Paul Fopeano, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Can anyone share a photo of and original older White canoe seat? I'm getting ready to replace the seats and caning on my 1947 17' and would like to see the style.

    Thanks!
     
  2. Dan Lindberg

    Dan Lindberg Ex Wood Hoarder

    Here is one from a 1955 18.5 Guide
    Dan
    White seat (800x600).jpg
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Thanks Dan!

    I think my boat is a bit older than yours because it's seats are hand caned. But thanks for the effort!

    I did find a earlier post that had a picture of seats very much like mine on a White. The hand woven cane was (I think) a "Six-Way" Cane Pattern - traditional weave that did not have a corner hole ...... Old Town used a "Six-Way" when they still hand caned (before 1938?) and the same pattern when they went to machine woven cane like yours.

    Below is a picture of the seats that I'm replacing. It is woven with nylon cord. It should help you make some sense out of what I trying to say.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Dan Lindberg

    Dan Lindberg Ex Wood Hoarder

    I'm not a White guy, but are you sure those are the original seat frames?
    To my eye, they don't look all that old.
    Any old seat frames I remember seeing had thin cross sections and were nicely rounded over.
    And the real old Whites had that curved rear cross member.

    Here is an image of an older seat.
    Dan

    White seat old.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  5. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Hey Dan,

    Our best guess is that my boat is 1947. (stamped stern stem) So it isn't anywhere as old as the canoe shown. Mine also has open gunwales.

    The finish on the seats I showed is consistant with the rest of the boat and the whole thing looks pretty original. (except the outwales) I wish I had those fancy frames! Maybe on my next new boat...... The White repo by Northwoods that hangs in the LL Bean store in Freeport has those curved seats - Beautiful!

    Here is a couple of shots I took when we pulled her out of the bushes.

    Paul
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    The D-shaped rear seat was no longer made in the 1940s. I've looked through the catalogs in the collection on CD. There is no copy of the 1947 catalog and 1948 is a flyer that doesn't show much detail. The 1940 catalog shows slat seats on most of the canoes-- no seats at all on some. The 1924 catalog (next one down in order on the list of catalogs on my CD) shows a seat frame without the corner holes. The picture doesn't show the detail of the cane pattern well, but I'll post what it looks like, enlarged a bit so it's fuzzy.

    Kathy
     

    Attached Files:

  7. mccloud

    mccloud "Tiger Rag" back on the tidal Potomac In Memoriam

    Was White still hand-caning in 1947, long after Old Town had quit? The 1948 White that I rebuilt had no seats when I got it. I put hand-caned in because I wanted to, not because I was trying to be authentic. Wish I'd seen some of these photos before I did my project. Tom McCloud
     
  8. MGC

    MGC Scrapmaker

    For all things White I would give Rollin a call. He and Jerry have seen/dealt with more Whites than all of the rest of us put together.
    My guess is that he will point you in the right direction also be able to answer any other White related questions before you get too deep into your project.
     
  9. mccloud

    mccloud "Tiger Rag" back on the tidal Potomac In Memoriam

    If you have Wooden Canoe #192, Dec. 2015 handy, turn to page 22, and look in the lower left corner. This is the White I was talking about. Tom McCloud
     
  10. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    White seat follow-up

    Here's a little follow-up to my White seat question. Thanks for all the help!

    I copied White directly when I built the frames but I did have to emblish the design a little. (I just chamfered the top leading edges - they were much too plain just slightly relieved like White left them) As best as I can tell White did use a "six step" traditional weave, like this, without edge binding.

    Where I did step out of the box was with the choice of material with which to weave the seats. The bow seat (on top) is plastic caning, 1/8" wide, just like medium natural cane without all the caning problems. This stuff was made to be used in moist situiations - what better place to test it than a canoe? The seat on the bottom is medium natural cane. I struggled to do that chair in two days. The canoe seat I did in just a few hours at only a fraction of the cost and none of the frustrations working with a natural product can cause. Other than the color difference, you have to touch the stuff to tell it is not real cane! And even then it ain't easy to tell......
     

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  11. Rollin Thurlow

    Rollin Thurlow member since 1980

    The canoe looks like it might be a very late 1940's or very early 50's. the ends of the ribs are full size instead of being tapered in thickness and the rials do not project beyond the face of the stem but it does have the wrap around brass stem bands. These show that the it was built after E.M. White died and the new owners were in the process of making the canoes easier to build but they hadn't progressed enough yet to change to the more standard narrow stem bands.
     
  12. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Thanks Rollin,

    The stems are marked 17 - 47 - 534 and although I have found nothing to confirm it (a WCHA search came up with nothing) I took it to mean 17 foot canoe, made in 1947, serial number 534. So what you are saying sorta confirms it. I believe that the blue painted canvas was the result of at least the first recanvasing. I found several replaced ribs as well. The the gunwales were pretty much toast and could have been replacements. I was hoping that the earlier classic White gunwale ends were just lost when they reworked her.

    The wrap around copper stem pieces attach to the keel and to me look like that is where they were originally. They fit under the rail ends. If the gunwales do not extend past the stem it will be easier to rebuild but I might just have to look to the old (190's - 1950's) catalogs before I decide how I want to proceed. (I Really like the older style!)

    I have included a couple of pre-deconstruction photos to show what I mean.

    Thanks!

    Paul
     

    Attached Files:

  13. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Thanks for your help Kathy!

    Could you post a copy of a 17' White's profile as close to 1947 as you can? I have to decide how to rebuild the stem/deck/gunwales. Rollin thinks that the company was transiting (around 1947) to an easier to construct style that the earlier Whites.

    Thanks!

    Paul
     
  14. JClearwater

    JClearwater Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    Just an observation but the photo of the seat that Paul attached in the third post above shows 12 holes in both the front and rear of the frame, but the hole spacing on the front edge was done incorrectly and it ended up with a corner hole that throws off the cane pattern. I can't believe it came from the factory that way but I have been wrong before. It suggests that the seat was replaced at one time. If it were my canoe I would replace the front piece with a new one where the holes were spaced correctly. Just my two cents worth.

    Jim
     
  15. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Attached are images from "The Historic Wood Canoe and Boat Manufacturer Collection" edited by Dan Miller and Benson Gray. The first three are a 1948 White Canoe Company flyer and the last is a page from the 1952 catalog. Maybe someone with a White of similar age will post some photos.

    Kathy
     

    Attached Files:

  16. Dave Osborn

    Dave Osborn LIFE MEMBER

    Paul,
    I just finished a '48 White. It was from a scout camp and had no seats originally. I put new seats in at the customer's request. The original brass on the stems was weak, so installed the now typical 3/8" stem band.
    Had I reused the original brass stems it would have added 130 new nail holes into new canvas.
    Those brass stems are cool looking, but often trap water and lead to bad stems. That's happened on this one.

    The ribs are full width as Rollin describes, but the rails run past the stem.
    image.jpg
    image.jpg
    image.jpg
    image.jpg
    View attachment 33744
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  17. OP
    OP
    Paul Fopeano

    Paul Fopeano INNKEEPER

    Thanks everybody for the help! I will run my new rails past stem. I never noticed the hole pattern error on the old seats. I've already replaced both frames and recaned them both. (no corner holes)

    Kathy's catalog pages and the pictures of Whites are great but don't help me come up with a good guess for a model ID. My 17' has sheer that is more like an OTCA than the guide canoes I think of when I think of Whites. Perhaps it is a "Sport Model". It looks a lot like the canoes pictured with the kids messing around on the water - a "Scout Model"?. Except that they didn't seem to offer a "Scout" in a 17' ?

    What fun!

    Paul
     

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