Cedar Rib

[samb]

Not a model, but a real one this time!
I have become the owner of a Peterborough rib canoe. At present I’ve not had much time to properly examine it but here’re some initial thoughts.

It is 14 ½ feet long and 32 inches wide (outside of gunnels at centre: - I wonder how they measured the beam? It’s about 29 ¾ “ outside of the hull ignoring gunnels)


Although most of both coamings are missing, the Id. plate was luckily loose up under the deck and survived a 6 hour drive without falling out.

On the Id. plate is : Model 3, serial 4489, grade cedar rib. The P’boro 19th catalogue page 15 https://woodencanoemuseum.org/sites/default/files/2021-02/Peterborough Undated 19th reduced.pdf (1918-19?) says no 3 is 15 ½ feet x 29 ½ “. This canoe is 14 ½ feet. By the 1927 catalogue, model 3 no longer exists. Are there any catalogues in between?


I can’t imagine this being the wrong plate: cedar ribs are few and far between in the Uk so I can’t see anyone finding one and adding it to their boat. If the boats arrived dis assembled and nested in the UK then I suppose it could have had the wrong plate fitted?

Being a single digit model means it is from before 1940.


The thwart tags are with the Peterborough and emblem and ‘trade mark’ meaning it is from after 1911

Other details which might help to date it:


Outer stem blends into the hull with a curved cut rather than blending into a keel as on a 1930 rib boat


No keel or sign of one - just stem band along the length of the boat unlike the 1930 boat


So . . . . initial thoughts are to date it sometime between 1911 and 1930 is my present best guess.

Many more photos to follow!


Sam

 

[Nick Dennis]

Thats a pair within a few miles of each other in Norfolk. We did the same with out Chestnuts! For reference here is the stem detail and tags on mine

Looking at my data sheet:

Model 1 14 1/2 x 26 1/2 x 11 from 1909
Model 21 14 1/2 x 30 x 12 - 1909-1921
Model 110 14 1/2 x 30 x 10 (Juniper) -1909
Model 141 14 1/2 x 30 x 11 (Ontario) - 1909
Model 421 14 1/2 x 30 x 11 1/2 (Solid Comfort) -1909

I cannot see reference to any serial number 4489 I would think that width is ex out wales but I am sure someone will correct Depth is also a variable. Model 21 ?

We can put the pair side by side and compare in the flesh soon.

Nick

 

[samb]

Thanks Rob. With the well varnished on thwart plates I'm sure its a Peterborough.
Sam

 

[samb]

Having had a bit more time to look I have found the following:


General condition.


It has not seen water for years, but has been stored inside and dry. The cedar is in good shape but the hardwoods - especially the parts I identify to be oak, have some worm damage. At least one of the stringers will need replacing.

The finish is in poor shape. It has been painted green in areas which were covered by the (missing) floor boards and underneath the decks. The paint is on top of the varnish.

Cedar ribs are all in fair shape apart from three places where aluminium (With the extra ‘i’!) patches which are riveted on using copper tacks, and a crack in one rib which is not visible on the inside.

I reckon a good soak with Geoffrey Burkes mixture will be of great benefit!


Thwarts.

There are three thwarts and no seats. All three thwarts have been cut to leave a flat concave face to which a piece of timber was added - presumably to make it more comfy to lean against? This has been done accurately; Might this be original? - I’ve never seen it before. The full thwart shape would have been nice and curvy.

Thwart plates are ‘trade mark’ type so after 1911

Decks.

The decks have dropped a bit at the stems. The king planks have been shortened and a piece of wood (or maybe the cut off section) replaced to cover the tops of the stems. The coamings are badly deteriorated and much is missing. Looks like the woodworm liked them a lot!

ID. plate

The Id. plate was luckily loose up under the deck and survived a 6 hour drive without falling out.

On the Id. plate is : Model 3, serial 4489, grade cedar rib. The P’boro 19th catalogue page 15 https://woodencanoemuseum.org/sites/default/files/2021-02/Peterborough Undated 19th reduced.pdf (1918-19?) says no 3 is 15 ½ feet x 29 ½ “. This canoe is 14 ½ feet. By the 1927 catalogue, model 3 no longer exists. Are there any catalogues in between?


Outer stems

The outer stems blend into the hull with a curved cut rather than running into the keel.

Gunnels

Wormy. At the stern they have been drilled for a motor mount. Ends are a bit worn. There are inner wales screwed from the inside, through the ribs into the main gunnel. Again, these are wormy and will need replacing.


Keel

There is no keel, just a keel strip running along the length of the boat. The keel strip is made up from various parts, brass and steel.



Dating:

The ‘trade mark’ indicates after 1911.

The absence of the model 3 in the 1927 catalogue indicates before then.

Does anyone have access to catalogues between these dates which might help me pin things down further?


Thanks for reading

Sam

 

[patrick corry]

Sam, with regard to your thwarts, I imagine the added piece is a vertical stiffener. Perhaps not original. The thwarts may be 'flexy' without them. Your photos reveal an interesting detail; the cedar planking is tongued & grooved. I was not aware that this was done, though it makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting your pictures.

 

[samb]

Sam, with regard to your thwarts, I imagine the added piece is a vertical stiffener. Perhaps not original. The thwarts may be 'flexy' without them. Your photos reveal an interesting detail; the cedar planking is tongued & grooved. I was not aware that this was done, though it makes perfect sense. Thanks for posting your pictures.

Patrick, The thwarts are no thinner than on any other all wood canoe I've seen, so unless one of the originals split, was repaired with a stiffener like that, and then all the others were done to match, which I think unlikely, I can't see that being the purpose.

These rib boats took around a month to build and obviously needed a great deal of skill to get things to fit so well. They are also fairly light and have a more or less smooth inside rather than all the ribs in most other types of all wood boats. Well worth studying one if you get the chance.

Sam

 

[Dan Miller]

On the Id. plate is : Model 3, serial 4489, grade cedar rib. The P’boro 19th catalogue page 15 https://woodencanoemuseum.org/sites/default/files/2021-02/Peterborough Undated 19th reduced.pdf (1918-19?) says no 3 is 15 ½ feet x 29 ½ “. This canoe is 14 ½ feet. By the 1927 catalogue, model 3 no longer exists. Are there any catalogues in between?

The twenty-first catalog (part of the now out-of-print Canadian Catalog Collection CD-ROM) shows the No. 3 as the 15 ½ version as well, as do 1909 and 1914 catalogs.

The only time a 14 ½ canoe shows up among these is in the 1909 catalog as the No. 1. (see attached).

A couple of possible theories:

• The canoes were often shipped nested and reassembled later - perhaps the decks/coamings from the 14½' and 15 ½' were swapped on reassembly
• Peterborough had a different numbering method for UK-bound canoes (not likely)
• The worker simply grabbed the wrong stamp when prepping the tag.

Who knows?

 

[samb]

Thanks Dan, that is where my thoughts are going. I haven't checked the depth of it yet - do you know how that was measured? When I start to disassemble, I will be looking for numbers under the thwarts and decks and will gently experiment to see if it might want to slim down from 29 1/2 to 26 1/2 inches although at that width I think it would be very twitchy on the water so it will most probably stay at its present build.
There is no evidence of a different number system that I know of - all UK Peterboroughs I have seen or read about have model numbers that match their catalogue dimensions. Of the ideas you put forward, I think it most likely that the decks (with tag) and thwarts of a model 3 were put into a model 1 hull. Measuring the depth could confirm that.
Are there any clues as to dates regarding the use of keels? I know that by the 30s keels were used on rib models and Nick Dennis' rib boat has a very thin keel but this has none at all; I look forward to seeing under the stem band at the stem - keelson joint.
Sam

 

[samb]

The number 1 at 14 1/2 feet is also shown in the 19th (1918 - 19?) P'boro catalogue in the woodencanoemuseum.org

Sam

 

[samb]

Today I've cleared out my workshop and got the boat inside on trestles. I can now measure accurately and find it to be 14' 10". I could accept that as 15' (which would make it a number 2 model, but it is well short of 15' 6" to make a number 3.
Measuring the vertical distance from the top of the keelson to the top of the gunnels is exactly 12".
Side to side at widest part of the hull without gunnels is 29 1/2 ".
..... So going off these measurements we can say it's a #1+ or a #2-, but it will wear its #3 badge with pride.
Sam

 

[walt]

Great find Sam! But I'm not sure that there is much hope of dating it really accurately.
One thing I have noticed about cedar ribs more than any other canoe is that they are all a bit different. Even the shape seems to vary in the same model, and I find in the more recent builds appears clunkier and not as refined. A couple of things of notice with yours are the oak decks (not that strange, but usually they're butternut) and the oak king planks which to me is odd. Also what appear to be quite bulky thwart blocks. Who knows how they arrived in the UK and how much assembly was needed but it does makes one wonder if all the parts actually came with it! And btw I would definitely think those thwart modifications were done after it left the factory.
As a fyi neither of the two #4 cedar ribs we have had a keel, just a very robust stem band as far as we can tell, and mahogany exterior stems. And they both originally had one piece butternut decks, maple outwales and neither had the interior rail running along the sheer.
Good luck with it. She will be beautiful, and as a head's up, if you take off the outwales don't be alarmed (but be prepared) if she sags noticeably.

 

[samb]

Today, after a lovely summer paddle with Nick, and having him round to see the new boat (I’m sure he’ll comment if he has anything to say) I got started.

I’d already taken off the inwales, coamings and decks. The decks have a bit of worm but nothing recent. They both got woodworm treatment. There is one bit where they were obviously hungry and couldn’t find the way out so the wood is weakened for ⅜” or so at the surface (but it’s under the deck) and that will get wood hardener. Otherwise they are in great shape and will be reused. I'll give them a good clean underneath to see if I can find any numbers. Inwales and coamings are on the fire pile.


Removing the thwarts I notice that they are dovetailed into their blocks. The blocks are the same as those on a 1930 cedar rib I worked on a couple of years ago, so I’m sure the blocks and thwarts are original (but then cut as backrests). They'll be replaced with full thwarts.

Has anyone else seen dovetailed thwarts? The 1930 boat didn’t have them and neither has Nicks.

I’ve started on stripping the insides and discovered the third patch on the boat is a copper one - much nicer and more discreet than the other two - I might need to see about changing them.

No doubt more to come.
Sam