Aussie Canoes

[Bill P]

Hello Canoe fans,

I have a couple of canoes I am refurbishing, and would welcome any comments on their probable origin. The boats seem a bit different to the ones I see in the standard references. See attachments:

They have half round ribs, wide planking and no inwales. There are no manufacturers stamps, logos or markings. They were built with only two thwarts and without seats. The white one has a mast step and is 15'7", the brown painted one is about 16'9" and more of a freighter style.

The thwarts, outwales, keels and decks are oak. The deck middles are teak and I think the ribs and planks are sitka spruce. There are a series of short rails between the ribs which cover the plank seams and give the checked appearance. I am told the boats are more than 60 years old, they're in Australia.

I have no idea where they were made. Has anybody seen anything similar?

 

[Dick Persson]

Hello Bill,

I see canoes like that quite often. I suspect that they are of Canadian origin, but a couple of US builders also tried their hand in building “wide-board rib & raised batten canoes”.

However, the lines of the canoes and some of the construction details lead me to suspect that they might have been built by Rice Lake Canoe Co and/or Canadian Canoe Co.

To aid in identification, please measure and post their overall length, beam and centre depth, and send a couple of close-up photos of thwarts, thwart-blocks and decks.

Sincerely
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop
Buckhorn, Ontario, Canada

 

[Bill P]

Thank you so much Dick,

I appreciate your help.

The white one is called "White Wings" and the approx dimensions are: LOA 16' 1 1/4" , Max beam 32 3/4", Centre Depth 11 3/4". The mast hole in the rear deck is not original and the centre thwart has been relocated onto non original mounts. (To accomodate the forward seat). This boat has recurved stems and some tumblehome. The attached photos are of this boat.

The brown one (originally green) is called "Pladda" and LOA is 16' 6", Max beam is 32 3/4" and centre depth is 12 1/2" . This has vertical stems and no tumblehome. It has the same thwart blocks and deck construction, but I think the deck centres might be mahogany under the black paint .

Regards,

Bill Purcell

 

[Bill P]

Hi All,

I found a number punched into the rear coaming under a few layers of varnish.

It's : 64 3069

Any ideas?

 

[dboles]

Howdy Bill
Nice canoes.I see a bunch of paddles next to one canoe in your post.Any manufacture stamp or decals on any of them?
As an aside I travel in the Purcell mountains here in Western Canada seems your folks get around some!
Dan'l

 

[Bill P]

Thanks Dan'l

Very nice of you to name some mountains after me.

Well..., maybe they're not actually named after me; the Irish diaspora may be more accountable for that.

There's a couple of very elegant paddles in that bundle, but there's no clues there either.

Cheers,

Bill Purcell

 

[Dick Persson]

Hi Bill,

YES, that number sure helps. Since you posted the last pictures I realized that my initial thoughts of builder might be wrong.
The number 64 3069 is the serial number and the two first digits are the model number. This number and the way it was stamped most likely identify it as a canoe built by Peterborough Canoe Co sometime in the early 1900’s. The model 64 was built in two versions; version one with straight sides and version two with a tumblehome.

I will post some pictures of an 1890’s version of a Peterborough # 64 later today. I do have one in my shop awaiting restoration.

Sincerely
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop
Buckhorn, Ontario, Canada

 

[Bill P]

Thanks a heap Dick,

They're a bit older than I thought then, expecially as they have the original canvas on.

Look forward to your pictures.

Regards,

Bill Purcell

 

[Dick Persson]

Hi again Bill,

Do you really think that the canvas covering on your canoes are original? Or is it possible that the covering was installed to solve a leaky canoe?
If the covering is original it likely would place the canoe’s manufacture during the time (1893 to about 1906 or so) of Peterborough Canoe Co serious experimentation with canvas covering. During this period Peterborough offered an amazing number of models constructed in all kinds of construction types; wide-board rib &.raised batten, wide-board flush batten, wide-board metallic batten, cedar-rib, longitudinal cedar-strip, lapstreak, and the possibility to get almost all of the styles canvas covered as well. To top it off many of the models were also available in two versions type 1 and 2.

Have you found a serial number on the brown canoe?

The pictures posted below of the #64 awaiting restoration are of a luxury version, type 1, with a butternut top board.

Sincerely
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop
Buckhorn, Ontario, Canada

 

[Bill P]

Wow Dick!!,

That red one looks almost like a twin sister!. Thanks so much for the pictures! I am not alone in the world!

The interior and stem band and ring finishing are identical! I realise now I am totally unfamilar with North American speciality timbers. I would not know teak from butternut from basswood. Sorry it's just where I live. Is there a 101 book or something for southern hemisphererians to aid in your timbers ID?
I had arranged to mill up some english oak for some new seats ( to be uphol with split cane) but would this be sacriledge?

I would be almost certain the canvas is original. The filler in the top rib screw holes and in the outwale screw holes is a hard white brittle stuff that hasn't been touched. (What is it?) I'm chipping it out and the brass is factory bright below. I don't reckon a canoe with planking this wide could ever have been watertight without canvas.

I have located the previous owner of the boats and have now initiated written correspondence.(he's in a nursing home). I hope this proves fruitful.

I have had a close inspection of the brown ones coamings but theres nothing even faintly visible under the thick black paint. Reckon I'll slap some stripper on there pretty soon! Stay Tuned!

PS I meant to ask about the mast hole trim, mine is made from thin sheet metal with maybe a nickle plate finish, yours looks somewhat heavier, maybe turned?

 

[Dick Persson]

Bill, here is a short background of the wide-board canoe and Peterborough Canoe Co:

The “board canoe” was the first real attempt to a commercially produced canoe. Its origins have been the product of discussions and speculation for more than a century. All the people credited with the invention lived in the greater Peterborough area, Ontario, Canada. Their inventiveness lead to the rise of a canoe building industry that made the Peterborough area famous around the world.

Peterborough Canoe Co emerged as an entity in 1893 after a fire destroyed the Ontario Canoe Co the year before. The early production was mainly the various versions of wide-board canoes, cedar-rib canoes and cedar-strip canoes. In the mid 1890’s after emerging competition of the canvas covered canoe from other companies, Peterborough seriously started offering their all-wood canoes with canvas covering. However, that style of canoe; “canvas covered wide-board” was mainly built as heavy duty freight canoes, but also smaller versions were built – like yours. Finally sometime around 1906 the company started building canvas covered canoes like everybody else.

I suspect that your canoes might be original Peterborough wide-board canoes (at least the white one) with canvas covering.

The wide-board canoes actually were watertight, that’s the reason the planking joints between the ribs are backed up with short raised battens. The one in the pictures I posted is painted directly on the wide basswood boards. Originally, that canoe was varnished inside and painted white outside except the 6 inches wide butternut sheer line board (also called a top board) and outside stem which were varnished.

Your canoes likely came equipped with thwarts only. Caned seats were offered as an option.

The mast-hole trim offered changed over time. The one in the photos I posted is actually turned out of wood. Also offered early on was an ornate brass plate. The ones installed in your canoes are actually a nickel plated plumbing fixture and was used by many Canadian companies as a mast-hole trim.

Sincerely
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop
Buckhorn, Ontario, Canada

 

[Bill P]

Thank you Dick,

You are a goldmine of information. Thank you for your insight.

I can't imagine that too many of these boats ever made it to over here, although I realise it was a global export industry at the time. I want to do some more research, the books shops here are a bit light on for Canadian history and canoeing generally.

I have taken the paint stripper to the coamings of the brown canoe, but no luck with any serial number. I have also stripped the black paint off the inside stems near their ends, but no luck there either. Is there any where else I should look?

The boats definitely only had thwarts. I just want the seats I put in to be complementary. There some original brass clips on the floor which I assume were for some sort of kneeling pads. And there's some brass press clips under the outwales that look original. Some sort of spray skirt?

Your #64 boat looks pretty much ready to roll. I would be very interested in what you would be doing to her before she is allowed to leave the shop?

The texts I have read seem to want to pull off the old canvas as an almost standard response to any restoration. I am far more cautious here as clearly I cannot simply cart the boat off for some professional expert attention if it goes awry.

Cheers,

Bill Purcell

 

[Dick Persson]

Hi Bill,

Depending on when built and type of canoe, serial numbers can be found in the following places; stamped into the upper face of the stem or into the coaming, on a brass plate installed on the top of deck or the coaming. On canoes shipped nested together they can be found on the underside of decks, thwarts and seats, written in pencil but occasional stamped in.

The brass clips you mention held down the floorboards. The floorboards used in canoes like yours where most likely made of basswood and could be had varnished or painted see below picture.

The #64 in my shop will have the following work done to it:
A complete and careful stripping of the old varnish and paint. A couple of long cracks in the garboards need to be fixed. All of the outside plank seams need to be cleaned from old hard body/seam compound. Construction and installation of new floorboards. Removal of three non original keels. Repair of the seats. Re-varnish of interior and re-painting of exterior as per the original style.

Many books are available through the WCHA Online Store http://merchandise.wcha.org

To help aid in the identification of the various woods used, try this site:
www.woodfinder.com/woods/woodindex.php

Cheers
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop

 

[Bill P]

Hi Dick,

I have got the floorboards for the brown one. They were wrapped up with the sails. (I didn't know what they were...) A good idea to spread the load across the ribs.

I have already got a few books: Maine Guide, The Wood and Canvas Canoe, Canoecraft. I 'll get a few more. I would be interested in any of your recommendations.

I'll have a look around under the decks and thwarts for a serial no. The black paint is a nuisance. The brown boat is a bit different to the white one in that the battens are flatter, not half round. It has a heavier keel with a full length band and is quite a bit heavier overall.

Many thanks for your help.

 

[Bill P]

Peterborough Rib and Batten #64

Well well

I have peeled off the canvas off White Wings and it is clear that the canvassing was an after market 'improvement" .

I suppose this was done because of leaks.

So guru Dick Persson your diagnosis from 1/2 way round the world is more accurate than mine! Well Done!. It indeed was later canvassed.

So is it worth the effort to restore a wood Peterborough #64 Rib and Batten to watertight wood condition, or do I just recanvas it?

I suppose it depends on how much it leaks without the canvas? Can't see too much daylight through it. There are some checks and splits but nothing too dramatic.

(Will I be shunted off to the dull ignominy of the " all-wood" forum ?)

I only ever wanted a family paddling boat.

Any ideas on conversions (and reversals) from wood to wood/canvas?

Regards,


Bill Purcell

 

[Dick Persson]

Hi Bill,

The brown boat is a bit different to the white one in that the battens are flatter

This type of ribs indicates a different builder than the Peterborough Canoe Co. Looking closer on the earlier posted pictures the thwarts of the brown canoe also seems to be slightly different. Have you found any serial numbers under all that paint? Post a couple of close-up pics of the brown canoe and its construction details and we might be able to figure out the maker.

So is it worth the effort to restore a wood Peterborough #64 Rib and Batten to watertight wood condition, or do I just recanvas it?

Old wide-board canoes are difficult to keep watertight as they over time develop more checks and splits. The sensible way to fix those splits if not to many or serious, are to back them up on the inside with battens between the ribs. I noticed that “White Wings” already have this type of repair.
The other option is of course to re-canvas, which was a common way to fix a leaking wide-board canoe, although you will be adding weight to an already heavy canoe.
I personally try to stick with original materials and techniques most of the time. If I deviate from that, I use a method that is easily reversible.

Cheers
Dick Persson
Headwater Wooden Boat Shop

 

[Bill P]

Peterborough #64

Hello everyone, and thanks so much Dick,

I appreciate your expert advice and attention. Over here the response I get is just a quiet narrowing of the eyes, at best. And maybe some gratuitous fibreglass advice....

I reckon the brown one is perhaps a Peterborough copy. It's at least 10kg heavier and the full length stem band is Aluminium. Being a bloke, unfortunately I can only do one thing at a time and the brown one is second on my list to do. Well the windows are leaking here but the roofs OK. I intend to attend to it later, after White Wings. I hope you are well Dick.

Attached are a copy of pics of the worst hull areas on WW. I don't reckon they're too bad (?) and I am seriously considering going Wood. The main problems are along the batten lines where the timber has torn from the edges. Pulling out structural members such as, ah, thwarts, obviously wouldn't have helped here.

But no rot at all. There is only one external ding which looks an easy fix. Beautiful boat.

Sharp eyes, there are four extra battens, two are for a hull repair, and the other two appear to be ex factory to cover board checks. I do hope you haven't chopped down all your thick white cedars over there. (I notice your #64 has 3 streaks, mine 4)

I'm thinking an epoxy filler might be the go. Please, please tell me if I'm mad. I know epoxy is not that reversible but hey it would fill those gaps. (I wonder if it would have been canvassed if epoxy was around 80 years ago?)

ps what's the story with the rectangular patterns on the hull outside of where the thwart blocks are? I see them on the catalogues and found them on WW too.

Regards,

Bill Purcell