Another eBay "salesman's sample" scam

[Roger Young]

Tiresome and also sad to see how some eBay sellers persist in trying to flog off cheap Chinese import replicas as being honest early American "salesman's sample" models. Once again, one of these imposters is advertised as being a "complete Old Town canoe" - http://www.ebay.com/itm/261818477188?rmvSB=true. The seller makes this claim based on what she alleges an auction house told her at time of purchase, but then says she is not an expert. However, her statement of authenticity is made in BOLD TYPE in the heading, with the weasel wording coming only later, when she also not so subtly suggests it is going cheap.

I thought I'd try to be very politely helpful and gently point out the error of her claims, while assuring her that I believed she probably meant well. I also told her to check with WCHA if she didn't believe me. So far, I've had no response, so have now assumed that a more devious than innocent intent could be involved. Anyone else care to inform her??? Perhaps she and others will eventually get the message. A few years ago, this was a common scam, with several sales resulting in innocent buyers getting ripped off for hundreds (in one case, even $2000+). For a while, efforts here and elsewhere seemed to correct the problem. Lately, these bogus listings seem to be returning. Perhaps it's time to do a little educational work once again. No one benefits when new buyers get burned, and wind up being angry at the world, including those who honestly work to promote canoe heritage.

Cheers,
Roger

 

[pklonowski]

The sale is listed as "Ended," with no bids. Perhaps she heeded your advice...? Nice work!

 

[Roger Young]

Paul:
It seems to have worked, although there were actually two bids that were made, the highest being $88.63. There was encouragement to go higher, which concerned me because of the inaccurate description. Those bids were still in place when I posted on this Forum last evening, almost a day after first writing to advise of her error. I figured that if no changes were made after a day, I'd 'red flag' it here in hopes of warning others. Seems 'cakelady' finally took note and cancelled those bids before ending the sale. My advisory note to her was very gentle, polite and simply informative. I haven't heard back, so I just hope these folks and others get the message that we do care about the marketplace where heritage canoe items are concerned, and are quite happy to give folks helpful advice so that everyone can avoid problems - - buyers as well as sellers.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Roger,

That piece didn't look much like an Old Town to me, but, how is the real thing different from imposters?
length, detail, quality, other?

Dan

 

[Greg Nolan]

Hi Roger--

After reading your first post late last night, I checked out the eBay listing. I then wrote to her, first asking for the name of the alleged auction house that was her source of information, suggesting that someone was playing fast and loose with the truth, then referring her to your eBay article "tips on avoiding fakes" and finally bluntly telling her that I would report her to eBay for her misleading misuse of a trade name/trademark if she did not remove the misleading statements. I felt no need to be gentle, given that your polite approach seemed to have no effect.

I received the following email early this morning:
"tHANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION AS THIS WAS AN HONEST MISTAKE. No need to taddle or report. I will be removing this listing."

I suspect that the concerted effort may have paid off.

Dan -- I informed the seller that the offered item had none of the usual characteristics of an Old Town canoe or Old Town "salesman's sample," and had every characteristic of a cheap oriental model. I further stated that Old Town models were typically 4 or 8 feet long, and that as far as I knew, Old Town had not made any model 27" long. I also referred her to Roger's article < http://www.ebay.com/gds/antique-sal...s-on-avoiding-fakes-/10000000002733487/g.html >

Greg

 

[Roger Young]

Dan:
I'm sure others will have good descriptions or 'pointers' to look for to distinguish between the real thing and the imposters or fakes. This particular imposter model comes from China, where it is very cheaply made and mass produced. It is often found in lengths of 15", 27" or 39" and has a very low profile (like a guide model). The woods used are balsa or other light (both density and color) materials. The hull may be painted (usually dark green, sometimes red) and some appear to have a cloth-type covering. Seats, if present, are made of a light mesh. The workmanship is decent, but not great; they have an appealing look to most novice buyers unfamiliar with true North American historic canoes. There is really not a lot of substance, very little quality, and these things would not stand up to much abuse or wear.

On the other hand, when looking for an authentic Old Town model, it should be either 48" or 96" (4' or 8') in length. A very few, very early OT models seem to have been made in a 42" length; only a handful are believed to be known. But, if it's not 4' or 8' be very suspicious. The Carleton models will be 42", with some 8' as well. The Kennebec models will be between 63" and 68" in length. These three seem to have been the major producers of 'salesman's samples'; those by other manufacturers may be out there, but rarely show up. That is especially true for the early Canadian makers.

One important thing to look for is the wood used to build the model. The early wood and wood/canvas canoe builders used the very same materials for their models as for the full-size canoes. These things were meant as display samples, so the makers put just as much effort, material and quality into the miniatures as they did with the big ones. An authentic sample will never be a flimsy piece sloppily put together, with a frayed mesh seat, or skinny little ribs randomly placed and unevenly spaced. So, since the real makers used the same wood species, look for mahogany, ash or spruce rails, perhaps cherry thwarts and decks, properly laced or caned seats - all that sort of thing. The shape of the canoe will likely look fairly close to an actual full-size version; after all, the model was supposed to exhibit the same attractiveness as the big one. OT models generally have an OTCA shape, Kennebecs are very curvaceous, Carletons have fairly well-developed re-curve stems. Most authentic items will have a decal or trade name, but then, repro decals can be added to a fake, as can some trade name lettering. So, be guided more by shape, quality, and little features like short cap rails on a Kennebec;, wrap around copper bands at the gunnel ends on a Carleton; sturdy, rugged, robust construction of an Old Town.

Below are three photos of some notorious fakes, all variations of the Chinese 'imposter' sample. One is the notorious 'Otter River Canoe Co.' sample which sold at auction for over $2000, before the sale was overturned when the fakery was exposed. Another shows a red 'imposter' sold on eBay for over $600, claiming to be an early Adirondack sample. One photo shows the Chinese model with the box it comes in from the importer. (Some get picked up by scammers, and 'doctored up' as with the 'Otter River' piece. Also shown are an authentic Old Town, a Carleton and a great old Kennebec in original paint, and with lovely early decals. I think you'll see what I mean, but for anyone who may still have doubts, ask before purchasing and I or others will be glad to help. Ask lots of questions first, and stay safe.

 

[Roger Young]

Greg:
Thanks for the back-up. It all helps. And, the vendor did the right thing and de-listed the item, or at least ceased the misleading use of the OT trade name. I don't care if they sell junk, nor how much they get from a foolish bidder, as long as there's no improper or misleading info which is used to sucker someone. That just winds up hurting all of us. Thanks, again.

 

[Gil Cramer]

Wow! I have one almost exactly like this one. My neighbor gave it to me, so I doubt that it cost too much.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

Greg and Roger,

Thanks for more details and the pics, obviously a big difference to anyone into old canoes.

BTW, I'm not a buyer of these, I just was both curious and wanted to get the details out in case someone reading it was.

Dan

 

[Roger Young]

AN IMPORTANT ADDITION:
In all this talk about length of models, especially those by Old Town, I should hasten to point out that there is ONE known 42" OT sample made likely in the 1950's. This is a very special piece, probably one of a kind, so it's extremely rare and unique. It is the 'Ojibway' model in aluminum colored paint, made for the Boy Scouts of America, and currently offered on eBay by Robert Ross, on behalf of a well known WCHA member. Although it doesn't fit the usual OT model size (probably was turned out on OT's Carleton mould), and the aluminum paint color was pretty much only used on BSA canoes, this IS an authentic item with which I am personally very familiar and can vouch for. Anyone in the market and looking for an exceptional piece might want to check this out. I have no commercial interest in it, but did not want to put anyone off by earlier suggesting that only 48" or 96" pieces were authentic and worth considering. There also is an early (1910-ish) 42" model, red, with Old Town decals and lettering, which was originally built as a Carleton, complete with Carleton style decks, carry thwart, etc., painted a typical Carleton palm green. Before it left the factory, it got converted to OT livery, got a factory re-paint in OT red, and proper OT decals of the time. How? Why? Best guess is that this occurred around the time of the take-over of Carleton by OT, and the change was likely made to satisfy a customer's wish. A true 'hybrid' and very likely another 'one of a kind', currently in a collection in the southern US. Exceptions to the general rule do occur.