Hello, recently purchased a Morris canoe. Current 2nd, owner says it is a 1912. Any information would be great and much appreciated. I bought her on a handshake, good condition, may need outer restoration, paint, recovering. Considering a professional in that regard. Thanks much, Tim
1912 B.n. Morris Canoe
- Thread starter Awaysis
- Start date
MGC
Scrapmaker
Hi Tim...congratulations and welcome to the WCHA. Other members will be along to offer advice about membership, reading materials, possibilities for restoration etc.
I'm interested to hear that you are the third owner of this boat. We are constantly looking for ways to pin down Morris (all) canoe build dates. If the previous owner can provide provenance for your boat that confirms an 1912 date, that would be very interesting and helpful, and especially if you have an associated serial number tag on your hull. In 1912 it should be located on the bow stem, secured by 4 brads. What is the serial number of your Morris?
Related, we are also interested to learn a bit about it...what length is it, what sort of decks, open or closed gunwales etc. Pictures are appreciated so please post them when you can.
If you are interested in learning more about Morris, here is a book that is authored by a WCHA member that should answer most of your questions:
http://www.wcha.org/store/morris-canoe-legacy-american-family
It includes a section about dating Morris canoes that will explain my response...
Mike
I'm interested to hear that you are the third owner of this boat. We are constantly looking for ways to pin down Morris (all) canoe build dates. If the previous owner can provide provenance for your boat that confirms an 1912 date, that would be very interesting and helpful, and especially if you have an associated serial number tag on your hull. In 1912 it should be located on the bow stem, secured by 4 brads. What is the serial number of your Morris?
Related, we are also interested to learn a bit about it...what length is it, what sort of decks, open or closed gunwales etc. Pictures are appreciated so please post them when you can.
If you are interested in learning more about Morris, here is a book that is authored by a WCHA member that should answer most of your questions:
http://www.wcha.org/store/morris-canoe-legacy-american-family
It includes a section about dating Morris canoes that will explain my response...
Mike
Welcome and congratulations, the list at http://www.wcha.org/builders-and-suppliers-directory may help you find a restorer. Please post some pictures and details as Mike suggested.
Benson
Good Afternoon All, yes, yes, was hoping we might be of some help/assistance in regard to the "List". I just read that "Thread" a few moments ago and thought it would be wonderful to help in any way.
I do not have good photos yet. Owner says 18 ft. And...drumroll please...a tag number...#9104. I do have a clear photo of the tag and, yes, 4 brads secure it.
I have worked with wood, so I should be able to identify the various pieces and their type of wood once she's cleaned up. He says they bought her in the 60's. I will have a full report once he and I share more time together. I am excited about a beautiful wooden craft over 100 years old and still seaworthy, that my family and I can enjoy...whether outside, on the water, or inside on the ceiling. The more I learn of B.N. Morris, I realize they are quite sought after and much copied. Thank You for talking, will share more when I can, Tim
I do not have good photos yet. Owner says 18 ft. And...drumroll please...a tag number...#9104. I do have a clear photo of the tag and, yes, 4 brads secure it.
I have worked with wood, so I should be able to identify the various pieces and their type of wood once she's cleaned up. He says they bought her in the 60's. I will have a full report once he and I share more time together. I am excited about a beautiful wooden craft over 100 years old and still seaworthy, that my family and I can enjoy...whether outside, on the water, or inside on the ceiling. The more I learn of B.N. Morris, I realize they are quite sought after and much copied. Thank You for talking, will share more when I can, Tim
Good Evening, well...shes home with us now. I am admiring the beautiful wood grain-straight as an arrow- on every part. I do belive she'd paddle wonderfully straightaway...my waters here at home have locked up for winter, I'll have to wait. Was repainted in the 80's, maybe coated with resin at some point. Wood looks fantastic, no problems noted so far. I am quite curious as to this first photo. Perhaps it is a flag socket? I did read about a light perhaps? Am not convinced its original, yet. I see studs with wing nuts, under the inwales, amidships- guessing for a portage yoke? Obviously the seats require attention and am amazed at the grain of the wood on the floor latice- absolutely straight from stem to stern, must be less than 1/16 th inch apart in places. Now, I cant wait to see how she looks all cleaned up, appears to be a light interior. No broken wood, at all, anywhere so far as I've seen. The stem bands have a nice patina and are almost perfect-no hits, dents, heavy abrasions, very clean, bow and stern. S/N 9104
Attachments
Photo of the bow. Decks, seats and thwarts are Mahogany. Its nice to share and learn here, Thank You All. Please, anything you may share would be great for us. We understand the boat came from New Jersey in the 60s, from a canoe rental lady who owned a little canoe livery. She closed shop, had the canoes afterward and sold them to the father of the gentleman I bought her from. So, we are the third family to care for and enjoy her. Am really curious as to the brass fitting on the bow. Best Regards to All, Peace
Attachments
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Beautiful Morris... congratulations! She looks to be in very good, original condition. The hardware in the center of the deck (diamond-shaped) is original; the other one is not. The diamond-shaped piece is made to hold a flagstaff to which a pennant would have been flown. The bolts/wingnuts you mention are probably in the center of the canoe, one underneath each of the two gunwales. These were to hold a removable center thwart in place. It would look just like the two that are still in your canoe, only longer. This was typical of Morris to attach the center thwart with wingnuts to make it easily removable. Unfortunately, many Morris canoes are now missing that center thwart because it was removed and either lost or simply not kept with the canoe as the canoe moved from place to place or owner to owner. Finally, the exterior looks to be painted canvas, which is good - much easier to remove this and replace it than to deal with removing something like fiberglass and epoxy.
By the way, you know you've got a nice one when the tips of the gunwale caps and the stembands are still perfectly intact as yours appear to be. Those parts are more delicate and this is where you most often see rot and breaks. It's unusual to find one this nice.
Hope this helps. And we hope to see more photos as you move forward with this worthy project.
Michael
By the way, you know you've got a nice one when the tips of the gunwale caps and the stembands are still perfectly intact as yours appear to be. Those parts are more delicate and this is where you most often see rot and breaks. It's unusual to find one this nice.
Hope this helps. And we hope to see more photos as you move forward with this worthy project.
Michael
Good Day, in considering clean up of the interior and perhaps removing the existing topcoats only, on the hull. Can I steam clean the interior? I hesitate to sponge too heavily and the residue run down, into the seams and canvas. The interior wood is dusty, dirty from storage and use. Wouldnt want to use compressed air and dislodge the canvas by "balooning" it from inside. Thinking very damp but dry sponge/nappy cloth and a vacuum. Had a thought of a simple scotchbtite pad and vacuum. Would love to hear thoughts about resurfacing the exterior. A hand sanding, gentle working to remove any rough outer areas and loose material, then feather, fill, re-topcoat? The canvas seems to be very much intact and servicable. These are my initial thoughts, I fully understand restoration projects, etc. Have worked in aviation my whole career and worked on a few historic aircraft. Been told I'm an excellent tin banger/hand fabricator also understand woodworking well, have crafted many things. Classes in woods, metals and drafting from gradeschool on. But, I really will not do anything to this beautiful craft until I have some guidance. By the way, I am catching quite a bit of (fun) flack from my family about 2 canoes and a kayak in my living room...standing firm so far. Thank You, Tim
Greg Nolan
enthusiast
Welcome to the WCHA.
Your canoe is in remarkably good shape, and should be readily restored to a beautiful condition.
That said, it is very unlikely that the canvas and paint are original, especially since this canoe served time as a livery canoe. Repainting and recanvasing are considered ordinary maintenance on a canoe (like getting new tires on a car). Your paint is quite severely cracked, at least in part because the paint has likely been recoated several times while doing rental duty. I would strongly recommend that you remove and replace the old canvas, and then repaint – with any color or design you wish.
While it is possible to repaint a canoe with paint cracked and crackled like yours, it would be only a stop-gap measure that would get you only a few years. And it will simply not look as good as a new canvas/paint job. And if paint is actually flaking off, repainting will not work. Here are links to some discussions in these forums about painting over old cracked or chipped paint when you want the paint to last only a season or three or five before re-canvasing:
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5790 see pp. 2-3 of this thread
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7769-Painting-over-existing-paint&p=41339#post41339
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?5933-quot-Minor-quot-Restoration-advice-please&p=32358#post32358
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7775-Temp-repair-to-bare-spot-on-canvas&p=41357#post41357
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7619-time-is-not-on-my-side!&p=40689#post40689
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8564-Smoothing-Canvas/page2 starting at post 12, on bondo spot putty
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?6607-sanding-or-not&p=35286#post35286
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8906-Repaint-Tips
Recanvasing is not as difficult as it might seem, and someone with your background and skills should have no trouble with the task.
New paint and canvas are really called for, and unless you are desperate to use the canoe this coming year, I would recommend against the stop-gap approach.
The varnish on the interior of your canoe is quite well worn, and at a minimum, a new coat of good marine varnish with high ultra-violet additives is called for. Varnish is not just decorative – it protects against wear and ultra-violet damage to the soft cedar of the canoe. Better would be to strip the existing finish and put the new varnish over clean, sound wood. The advantages of stripping old varnish with the canvas off is: 1) you do not have to worry about trapping chemicals or new varnish behind the old canvas; 2) you can remove any and all sand, dirt, and other crud that has likely accumulated between the canvas and the hull planking; and 3) you can closely examine the wood of the hull (both ribs and planking) for damage that is sometimes not readily visible even after a good wash-down. The ideal time to do this is when an old canvas is removed, but before a new canvas is put on.
If you do proceed to simply wash the canoe out, I would not use a steam cleaner. A gentle water rinse using a garden hose without any nozzle, or a light scrubbing with a sponge (perhaps using TSP) would be the most that I would do. Any sort of pressure washing risks damaging the soft cedar of the cane and may drift dirt into and/or behind the planking or between the ribs and planking. Further, much of the wood in a canoe has been purposely bent to a greater or lesser degree – and I would worry that the heat of steam might adversely affect the shape of the canoe (not likely a problem, but why risk it?).
Before you make any decision about how to proceed (either doing the work yourself or hiring a professional for some or all of the work), you should get, or at least look at, one of these three good sources of information about canoe restoration:
The Wood and Canvas Canoe: A Complete Guide to its History, Construction, Restoration, and Maintenance by Rollin Thurlow and Jerry Stelmok
Building the Maine Guide Canoe by Jerry Stelmok
This Old Canoe: How To Restore Your Wood-Canvas Canoe, by Mike Elliott
The first is often called the "bible" of canoe repair, restoration, and maintenance; the second is an excellent study of the wooden/canvas canoe and its construction. The third is the most recently published and has been well received.
These books are available from the WCHA store, are often on eBay, or from Amazon.
Of course, you can always ask questions here on the forums. There is a good deal of information here, and we are happy to share and pass on what we have learned.
The WCHA has a very active and knowledgeable membership in Michigan. You might consider getting in touch with Craig Kitchen, our chapter coordinator, for information about chapter activities.
Good luck with your very nice canoe.
Greg
Your canoe is in remarkably good shape, and should be readily restored to a beautiful condition.
That said, it is very unlikely that the canvas and paint are original, especially since this canoe served time as a livery canoe. Repainting and recanvasing are considered ordinary maintenance on a canoe (like getting new tires on a car). Your paint is quite severely cracked, at least in part because the paint has likely been recoated several times while doing rental duty. I would strongly recommend that you remove and replace the old canvas, and then repaint – with any color or design you wish.
While it is possible to repaint a canoe with paint cracked and crackled like yours, it would be only a stop-gap measure that would get you only a few years. And it will simply not look as good as a new canvas/paint job. And if paint is actually flaking off, repainting will not work. Here are links to some discussions in these forums about painting over old cracked or chipped paint when you want the paint to last only a season or three or five before re-canvasing:
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=5790 see pp. 2-3 of this thread
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7769-Painting-over-existing-paint&p=41339#post41339
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?5933-quot-Minor-quot-Restoration-advice-please&p=32358#post32358
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7775-Temp-repair-to-bare-spot-on-canvas&p=41357#post41357
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?7619-time-is-not-on-my-side!&p=40689#post40689
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8564-Smoothing-Canvas/page2 starting at post 12, on bondo spot putty
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?6607-sanding-or-not&p=35286#post35286
http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?8906-Repaint-Tips
Recanvasing is not as difficult as it might seem, and someone with your background and skills should have no trouble with the task.
New paint and canvas are really called for, and unless you are desperate to use the canoe this coming year, I would recommend against the stop-gap approach.
The varnish on the interior of your canoe is quite well worn, and at a minimum, a new coat of good marine varnish with high ultra-violet additives is called for. Varnish is not just decorative – it protects against wear and ultra-violet damage to the soft cedar of the canoe. Better would be to strip the existing finish and put the new varnish over clean, sound wood. The advantages of stripping old varnish with the canvas off is: 1) you do not have to worry about trapping chemicals or new varnish behind the old canvas; 2) you can remove any and all sand, dirt, and other crud that has likely accumulated between the canvas and the hull planking; and 3) you can closely examine the wood of the hull (both ribs and planking) for damage that is sometimes not readily visible even after a good wash-down. The ideal time to do this is when an old canvas is removed, but before a new canvas is put on.
If you do proceed to simply wash the canoe out, I would not use a steam cleaner. A gentle water rinse using a garden hose without any nozzle, or a light scrubbing with a sponge (perhaps using TSP) would be the most that I would do. Any sort of pressure washing risks damaging the soft cedar of the cane and may drift dirt into and/or behind the planking or between the ribs and planking. Further, much of the wood in a canoe has been purposely bent to a greater or lesser degree – and I would worry that the heat of steam might adversely affect the shape of the canoe (not likely a problem, but why risk it?).
Before you make any decision about how to proceed (either doing the work yourself or hiring a professional for some or all of the work), you should get, or at least look at, one of these three good sources of information about canoe restoration:
The Wood and Canvas Canoe: A Complete Guide to its History, Construction, Restoration, and Maintenance by Rollin Thurlow and Jerry Stelmok
Building the Maine Guide Canoe by Jerry Stelmok
This Old Canoe: How To Restore Your Wood-Canvas Canoe, by Mike Elliott
The first is often called the "bible" of canoe repair, restoration, and maintenance; the second is an excellent study of the wooden/canvas canoe and its construction. The third is the most recently published and has been well received.
These books are available from the WCHA store, are often on eBay, or from Amazon.
Of course, you can always ask questions here on the forums. There is a good deal of information here, and we are happy to share and pass on what we have learned.
The WCHA has a very active and knowledgeable membership in Michigan. You might consider getting in touch with Craig Kitchen, our chapter coordinator, for information about chapter activities.
Good luck with your very nice canoe.
Greg
Hi, TIM.....so , you are on the road to the " addiction ". " Standing firm " will not always be easy . You may be well advised to begin making plans to built a storage facility. The boat is what a restorer loves to come upon given its condition and the builder. Your mention of a little rental livery in NJ. I would not be surprised if this lady was a Mrs. Eleanor Powell who was a direct descendant of E. Hack. In 1876 he established a little boat livery that quickly became the E. Hack canoe retreat on the banks of the Rancocus creek in Mt. Holley, NJ . Of course I may be just speculating but the typical Hack gray paint , NJ and the mention of a lady Livery owner piqued my interest. You may have surmised that I have a " Hack " boat that came to me in fine condition. She came from Mike Huston of Philadelphia, to Bucksport Me. and to me in 1996. I did not get to her restoration until 2014 where she helped celebrate the 35th year of the founding of the WCHA. You have a great find here and I hope you move slowly in whatever process you choose to protect the canoe. The pics seem to show a distortion in the wale midship. If there is a crack it could be repaired with a spline insert to preserve the inner wale face. The new work would be completely covered when the cap is replaced. This depends on some careful evaluation of the potential for change in the wale shape in all directions. You have the other side though that seems perfect and would provide a comparison. It is a tricky repair, so be careful. Good luck, and you may like to talk to a fellow WCHA member, Al Bratton. He is not far away, I think.
Dave
Dave
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Hi Tim - There's something in your message that hasn't really been addressed yet, and that's the perception of rarity and how to preserve a rare canoe. Morris canoes have beautiful lines and they are well built. Most people who know them love them. That said, among Morris canoes (and even among antique wooden canoes), yours doesn't appear to be a particularly rare one. No disrespect intended - its a very nice canoe to have. So the point is, don't worry too much about doing the wrong thing. Clearly you want to take care of it and do best by it. So as others have suggested, consider restoration as opposed to preservation as-is. This canoe isn't pristine, and would benefit greatly by a quality restoration. The books mentioned above would be fun reading, and probably inspirational for you. They'll tell you in detail the steps of restoration and they'll illustrate how to do quality work. What you can end up with is a gorgeous and fully functional Morris that can be enjoyed with confidence on the water as you wish, and will be appreciated by anyone who sees it.
Attached are a couple of Morris photos, a canoe that started in a condition similar to yours. You can find lots of restoration stories in these forums to get you excited, along with lots of helpful information. Plus, as Dave wisely advised, reach out to people in your area.
Attached are a couple of Morris photos, a canoe that started in a condition similar to yours. You can find lots of restoration stories in these forums to get you excited, along with lots of helpful information. Plus, as Dave wisely advised, reach out to people in your area.
