To add a 'carry thwart', or not?

[Howie]

I'm in the middle of restoring a 15' Old Town 50 Pounder from 1945. This canoe has a very short deck - about 10" long - and only attached to the first two half ribs whose ends are tapered to virtually nothing. I'm concerned that the deck is just not anchored to the ribs too well. Seems to me that when you hold the canoe by the deck all the canoe's weight is being supported by the rail located between the 2nd and 3rd half rib.

So I'm thinking of adding carry thwarts. Of course the problem with carry thwarts is that adding the bolt hole weakens the rails. I'd use #10 screws to lessen the damage, but still...
So I'm looking for advice. Add carry thwarts?, or not?

 

[shelldrake]

Howie,

I added them to my 50 Pounder and love them. Great for picking the boat up, and more importantly in my opinion, they provide a solid tie-down point for transporting on a vehicle and for painter attachment.

Matt

 

[Dan Lindberg]

IMO, all canoes should have carry thwarts. I try to never lift by holding a deck.

If the ct is under the rail and well fitted (to prevent rocking), you might even get away with a #8 screw.

Dan

 

[Howie]

Ok... I think I'm convinced it's the right thing to do. And I'll use #8s. I sold a Carleton a few years back that had a carry thwart (a single one at the bow) and an OT CW that originally had sponsons that had 'em as well. Wish now I traced then so I could replicate. Especially the Carleton's - it had a very soft 'C' shape to it - see pic. Thanks for taking the time to reply guys.

 

[shelldrake]

Why not through-bolt Howie? Use the same fasteners used on the thwarts and seat frames. # 8 screw makes me nervous.

Matt

 

[Benson Gray]

How about cane carry handles like the one shown at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27135&d=1383596930 from a 1901 Indian Old Town canoe if you don't want to interrupt the rail in any way? This could be reinforced internally with nylon or wire if you are worried about the strength of the cane. See http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?11487 for more details about this canoe.

Benson

 

[MGC]

Howie,
If you want to make a run up to the West side you may measure/trace the ones on my Carleton. You might be equally interested in the ones my son put on his Traveler.
Mike

 

[Howie]

Matt - If I go the #8 screw route they would be bolts with thru holes. And #8 should work well as they don't take any weight - the rails do the work - all the screws do is hold things in place.

Benson - Lashing would indeed be an alternative. Hadn't thought of that... But maybe by screwing it in it might reduce the tendency of the rails to pull away from the deck. Can't do that with lashing.

Mike - Thanks! I might take you up on it. Though I guess I'll carve something out first & see how it looks. All it takes is wood & time!

 

[Fitz]

Most of the Old Town decks I have seen are simply screwed through the inwales and into the deck, so the ribs don't factor in much. I don't really think a carry thwart is needed, but it is your canoe. If you like hand thwarts, then put them in. I like fifty pounders, but it is your canoe and I really don't think it is necessary.

Sorry, while I do not think I am a purist, I do lean that way.... I forgot to mention. I just repaired a canoe where the rails broke at the hand thwart, but it was a very heavy canoe with much smaller decks than the 50 pounder. It is also possible that someone broke the inwales trying get to replace the hand thwart. Who knows. Actually, thinking about this canoe a bit more, this canoe had no seats, so it is very possible that the hand thwart was heavily leaned on or sat upon and that may have broken the inwales too.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Howie --

I have carry thwarts from a 17' OT HW that are, at the moment, out of the canoe. I just put one on the copy screen of my computer's printer copier; the copies (top and bottom) could serve as full size templates. Not the nice "C" shape of the Carlton -- just a nice standard-shaped small thwart. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send them off to you, if you wish.


I have a 15' 50 pounder. As on your canoe, a previous owner did me the "favor" of drilling a 1/2" hole in each deck (even nicely placing one slightly off-center, adding a certain asymmetrical je ne sais quoi to that deck), which provide me with an attachment point for a painter or tie down. I tie a small loop of light rope through the holes, to which I can tie a painter or tie-down. In several seasons of use, I never felt that the deck, fastened by screws through the inwales as Fitz describes, was weakly or insecurely attached. I have found the decks quite sturdy when using them to carry the canoe, or when attaching a line for a painter or car-topping tie-down.

That said, I am in the process of restoring the canoe, and I may add small carry thwarts. The small loops of rope are not terribly attractive and are inconvenient to remove and re-install. So if I do add carry thwarts, it will largely be for appearance and convenience, not because I think the decks are too fragile.

 

[Howie]

Thanks for the offer for the image of your carry thwart. Could you email me the file please? hjehan@rochester.rr.com

And... I'm amazed that you use the decks as an anchor point to help hold the canoe in place while atop a car! I'd be afraid the deck would be yanked right off! Obviously not though - you prove that. So let me think... The deck on the 15' 50 Pounder is attached to the inwales which are in turn nailed to the rib tips. But the side of each deck spans only two half ribs which are tapered down to nothing by the time they reach the deck - ring nails would pull right through them given a good tug. The first full width rib meets the inwale 2" to 3" away from the first screw holding the deck in place - not a very secure scheme engineering wise. BUT what I haven't considered is that the outwales also span this area, and they have nice big screws that go deep into the deck. So, I'm thinking the strength of the design comes from the outwales. First they re-enforce the inwales and provide extra strength, plus the screw passing through the thin half ribs cause the rib to be squeezed against the deck so that they can also add some holding power. So the moral is: be kind to your outwales!

By the way... Sometimes the hole in the deck were put in by the manufacturer. They were used to hold a short flag or pennant pole. I'm thinking that's the case with my canoe. Maybe not your though - the hole seems too close to the tip.

 

[JClearwater]

I’m with John F. on this one. I tend to lean purest on this sort of thing. As far as a tie down point for car topping what I did for my two closed gunwale canoes was the following: Neither canoe has painter rings or holes in the deck to attach a rope so I made trapezoid shaped blocks from scrap wood that fit inside the canoe just behind the deck when it is inverted on the car. A tie a rope through a hole in the block and then down to the bumper. The blocks are not attached to the canoe. They stay in place when the rope is tight and transfer all the force to the inwales – none to the decks. With a closed gunwale canoe there is no place to tie a rope except for maybe the seat frame. Even painter rings (especially through the deck) seem a little bit too light to use IMHO. This solves the problem of car topping but does not solve the problem Howie asked in the original post. But unless you are planning on carrying the canoe with a bunch of stuff weighing down the canoe I don’t see a huge problem.

Good luck and Happy New year to everyone.

Jim C.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Howie --

The images I have of the thwart are photos, which do not print out at the actual size of the thwart. I am in Maine at the moment, but will be returning to NYC where I can scan the thwart in a day or two -- the scanned image may print out true to size. Otherwise, what I have are copies of the thwart made by placing the thwart on the copier glass -- and they are true to size, but exist only on paper.

 

[Howie]

Greg - The more I think on it I think I'll make something like the Carleton's rather than Old Town's. So please don't bother. Thanks again for the offer though.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

I ad carry thwarts of parachute cord lashed and woven similar to Benson's photo of the cane thwart. No holes, no added weight, works on open gunnels only.

 

[Howie]

Ya know, I'm starting to like the idea. I could carve out a Carleton-like shape and lash it in place without any holes in the rails. I have to think on it...

 

[divedog]

I made a skin on frame canoe once and lashed the thwarts to the rails with artificial sinew... Just a thought.

 

[pklonowski]

I've created a kind of harness, for canoes with no good attachment points at the end. Tie one end of the harness to the seat, wrap it over the hull, then underneath, running it forward so it gets close to the end, then over & back to the other end of the seat. Kind of hard to explain, but the goal is to stabilize the leading end of the canoe against the torque imposed by highway speed winds. Keep that in mind while rigging it, and it'll work.

 

[Howie]

Divedog - I like it! I'll steal the idea from you & Benson.