Tippicanoes

[yankee2]

I just took my new, old, unrestored Chestnut 14 footer for a paddle on Walden Pond (Concord, MA; water temp. 40 degrees F), and was surprised at how tippy it is!

Now, I have been paddling canoes for some 50 years, but never I guess in a real canoe (read "one requiring some skill"). All of the several I've paddled have been relatively flat-bottomed and/or larger. They seem like rafts compared with this (my example does seem to have a somewhat more rounded bottom than others I've seen pictures of)! Also, this would be my first paddle of the season, which must contribute to the effect. At first I felt rather insecure, and stayed close to shore.

After a few minutes or so, however, I began to get used to it. I still feel more than a little nervous about moving around in the canoe, as it seems to roll at the slightest provocation, but I do expect that I just need to get used to what the boat demands, and I do want to get into faster and/or more efficient canoes. Still, I can't quite imagine sharing it with a less than experienced person or a large dog!

Do other people have the same experience?

 

[Greg Nolan]

Your experience pretty common. Most canoes made for the mass market have been built wide and with flat bottoms -- legitimate design components, but not the only acceptable ones, or even the best ones. People not used to canoes. A wide flat-bottomed canoe has considerable initial stability -- the canoe will not feel, and will not be, so"tippy." Many manufacturers feel that most people prefer such a canoe, and mass-market canoes are mostly designed this way. But in difficult conditions -- rough water, high winds -- such a canoe may have less final stability -- it may actually swamp or go over more readily than a canoe with am arched or rounded bottom.

Take some time to just move about in your new canoe. Stand, kneel, sit, shift your weight into the turn of the bilge. Keeping your weight low pays higher dividends than it does in a flat-bottomed canoe. And keeping the canoe stable is not a matter of just sitting quiet and still -- it is a dynamic activity -- when the canoe is moved by a wave or a dog or your paddling partner, you can compensate by shifting your own weight. It takes some experience to learn just how the canoe will move when you do, but once you know what the canoe will do in response to your movements, you will feel more comfortable, as you have already experienced. And you will appreciate that your canoe is not "tippy" but rather is "responsive."

 

[yankee2]

Thank you. I could have written what you said, myself, except that I know much of that more in theory than in practice. My canoeing experience is very deep but not very wide!

Your description of how stability, in a good-performing canoe, is dynamic is spot-on. I have always kind of looked down upon flat-bottomed canoes (though that being most of my experience) as being for novices, or those who can't be bothered developing skills. Now I do have a little more appreciation, but would rather acquire the skills than take the easy way out. I'm sure that the flat bottomed canoe was a much easier sell, especially to Americans who think everything should be as easy as possible, and not require any effort, than one that seems tippy.

I think this Chestnut IS in fact a little tippier, i.e. more tender, than most, owing to its small size. I have another 14 footer which is 4" wider, with a very soft chine but also a smallish flat bottom (a Great Canadian Voyageur), which seems much bigger and more stable. The Chestnut seems much smaller, and much more ready to tip. Never fear, however, I will stick with it. My experience being almost entirely flat water (and flat bottomed canoes), I have never yet actually fallen out of a canoe, except deliberately, and hope to maintain that record... at least until the water gets a lot warmer!

 

[yankee2]

I think I will like the shallow-arch bottom better, once I get fully used to them, but I must say, I appreciate why many people prefer a flatter bottom. Flat-bottomed canoes are relatively easy. Never having really had to "check my momentum" (as much) when my flatter-bottomed canoes rocked, I never fully learned how (and didn't even know it).

Well, now I will.

 

[MGC]

my new, old, unrestored Chestnut 14 footer >>>>>>>>>seems to roll at the slightest provocation, but I do expect that I just need to get used to what the boat demands, and I do want to get into faster and/or more efficient canoes. Still, I can't quite imagine sharing it with a less than experienced person or a large dog!

Do other people have the same experience?

I remember the first time my wife and I paddled our Chestnut Fox...we have put in many hundreds of miles together but never (until then) ever encountered such a twitchy little beast. It was a very very careful paddle to say the least. Every time one of us shifted we thought we were going in. Lacking tumble home and pretty rounded it was immediately apparent how it got it's name.
I took it out after that paddle and found it to be really nice solo. It responds to the paddle very nicely, tracks well, heels over really well....a pleasure in contrast to our first twitchy ride.

I bought the boat pretty cheaply from someone that padded it twice and dumped it both times.
He got it from a family member that was the original owner. They dumped it each time they went out and stored it away until they gave it away....
In retrospect my wife and I did well. Apparently we were the first couple to paddle it without ending up in the drink.

 

[Rob Stevens]

Short canoes, are, by their nature, tippy. Or wide, heavy tubs. Most are not meant for two paddlers.

 

[Fitz]

Just a thought, if you are paddling solo, don't try to sit on the stern seat. Paddle stern first kneeling and/or leaning against the back of the bow seat.

 

[Todd Bradshaw]

Ribbed canoe bottoms also sometimes seem to round-out a bit with age. Considering that one side of the woodwork is not sealed and repeatedly comes in contact with a certain amount of water and/or moisture, I guess this isn't surprising. The flat-ish-bottomed/sharp-bilge-curve shape that canoe ribs get steam bent into really isn't the natural shape that bending a hunk of wood generates.

 

[yankee2]

That's interesting, we all had a pretty similar experience with the Fox, except that being alone the whole time, unlike the previous owners of your canoe, I stayed dry. I imagine quite a different outcome had I had a dog... or a person with me! I think that Canadians have been paddling sportier canoes than we in America. They have used them more, historically, are used to them, and think nothing of paddling canoes like the Fox. Now I consider it my job to get up to speed. I will certainly enjoy the effort, though, I think I'd rather wait until the water is a bit warmer before pushing its limits! I wonder where this canoe ranks in tippiness, compared with other canoes? I'm not saying that instability is necessarily a bad thing, because benefits come with it, and I like that, but how much tippier can a canoe get? I've been thinking I want a (Chestnut) Cruiser in my collection, but have never paddled one. I wonder, are they even tippier? Maybe I should get a Bobs Special (usually described as very stable) or a Prospector instead!

 

[yankee2]

This 14 footer has two seats, but would challenge my skills with 2 aboard (maybe to the breaking point)... My other 14, on the other hand is 4" wider [36" wide], has a flatter bottom, and feels much more stable (I have yet another 14, a fishing canoe in FG, which is 9" wider [41" wide!], with a V-shaped hull, which is like a barge). I don't hesitate to take another adult in the former, or totally undisciplined kids in the later. I've actually had 2 kids rush to one gunwale at once to catch a glimpse of a turtle, in the fishing canoe, without the slightest risk of an upset. This little Chestnut is intended as a solo boat, and I think that's probably what it will remain...

 

[yankee2]

I wouldn't use the stern seat, as it's impossible to trim the canoe from there. As a matter of fact, I'm not that inclined to use the forward seat, either, as it's much more stable kneeling on the bottom than sitting in the seat. Even sitting in the forward seat (paddling "backwards"), it feels pretty twitchy. Kneeling makes it secure enough to paddle on cold water, as long as I'm careful!

 

[yankee2]

You may have a point. Canoes DO change shape over time, and mine does not seem particularly flat-bottomed, as some describe it. I would imagine that certain kinds of storage, over the course of 50 years, might contribute. I have been wondering about what happens when the inside of a canoe is varnished, but the backs of the ribs and planking are bare wood... Water DOES get down between the planking and the canvas, sometimes lots of it, and chestnuts are apparently noted for opening up between planks... my Fox does have 1/16" gaps between ITS planks. Some builders today DO varnish both sides of ribs and planks, before they are installed, to address that issue.

 

[Graham]

You asked about a cruiser.... as someone who uses his Chestnut cruisers and Peterborough Mermaids (same as a Fox I think), I'd say they are similar in stability, and my favourites. I would only sit on the seats though if I'm fishing, or my knees really need a break. If you like your Fox, the cruiser will be a natural progression to a longer vessel. Clearly much better for 2 up, and feels just as fast solo. Interestingly enough... the older cruiser is slightly more flat bottomed than the later one. As to changing shape, I'm sure there's a benefit to shoe keels, quite common on these, and often removed.

Guests always remark on how tippy these are though...

 

[yankee2]

I feel better about kneeling in the Fox; sitting on the seat (the forward seat paddling backwards) seems just a little precarious. I do it mostly when my feet begin to fall asleep kneeling. I'm sure that I WILL get used to it, in fact, I think I already am, but I don't think I'll be taking my kids out in it any time soon unless we all have bathing suits on. I think the Fox will be a solo canoe in my family. Foxes are the exact same dimensions as Mermaids, and are probably identical.

A Cruiser is definitely on my wish list, which basically includes examples of all the smaller Chestnuts/Peternuts. On larger lakes, that extra speed might come in handy. I also like the way they look... If cruisers got narrower at some point, I think that's the opposite of the general trend, to make them wider to reach a wider clientele. You know, the guy who sold me the Fox DID mention, as I went out the door, that it is fairly tippy. Actually, I think it's just a matter of getting used to it, and being willing to work at it a bit.

 

[Dan Miller]

The Fox, set up with a kneeling thwart just abaft amidships, or with one of Tom Seavey's Saddle Seats, is an excellent solo canoe, especially for smaller adults. At over 6' and just shy of 200 pounds, I prefer the 15' version (Chestnut Chum/Peterborough Minetta) myself.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

A Chum is better yet, but sitting on the front seat solo being careless it has sent me swimming. At 6'2 and 260lbs I prefer a 1492 Champlain for a solo boat, since I hate kneeling for hours on a trip, and with gear and/or a kid it's perfect. Later cruisers are lively, but like prospectors benefit from a load to put them in the water rather than on it. After a few nervous turns in a 14 footer, I happily sold it to Rob for his much smaller daughter - either that or it was find another one for my other foot.

 

[KAT]

Or just hang a single seat from the holes for the bow seat. Turn the boat around and paddle away. I don't find my Fox tippy at all. I'll be taking it on a 6 day solo trip late June so should have a much better feel for the boat after that.

I'm 5'10", 160 pounds.

Karin

 

[Graham]

I guess I should have mentioned my review is from a 5'6" 135 pounder. Couple more pounds soaking wet.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

Seems a good time to recall that a canoe is not always a canoe - as Ken Solway found, forms were widened, and its a common enough occurrence to see similar models with significant differences over the years. That sharp looking 14 footer above is quite different from the 14 we were playing with, but luckily the water was warm. It has some of the sweetest lines and proportions for a boat of its size, but i'd be tempted to put a sheet of glass over it and call it a coffee table..... The original owner had purchased this particular one in the early '50s.

 

[Jan Bloom]

I had a 14' x 32" Chestnut Playmate for a while. Found it to be way over weight, 60lbs+, for it size and as well as rather slow feeling and not responsive. Anything but tippy or twitchy. I paddle a lot of rivers full of logs and brush. Small canoes that ride high and maneuver easily are the ticket. I mostly paddle a low tip Willow Wisp, 14'6" at 47lbs with thinned half ribs in the floor. Lots of fun.