Newbie: Car topping an 18ft Otca Safely on a Honda Accord (Long Drive!!)

[moonshine30]

Hi there!! I don't know if it's proper to post this here as this seems more like a resoration forum, so I appologize if I shouldn't put this here. I'm waiting to find out the specs from the serial number on hear, so I thought I would surf around the forum and maybe ask this question too.

I just bought an 18 foot Old Town Octa off of ebay and I have to drive from Minnesota to Kentucky to get it, which is about 800 miles home with it. I own a 2003 Honda Accord and don't have any racks. Familiar with using foam blocks, rope, and cinch straps down the middle, but wanting to know proper tie down advise for a boat this long on my car. Haven't ever move a boat bigger than 14 ft long on a car before and this is gonna be a bit of a beast.
(Beautiful beast though:-D)

Maybe this boat is too long to be hauling with my car, but don't really have a choice now. If I should stay under a certain speed, would like that info too.

Any quick advice would be appreciated as I am leaving on Friday to go pick it up. Don't want her to get damaged on the way home.

Just and FYI, she is basically fully restored, so structurally strong and the wood isn't cracked to where it would affect cinching down.

Jennifer

 

[pklonowski]

My experience with foam blocks was miserable.... unless you glue them to the car, they'll slip out of position. Best to get a set of racks; Yakima, Thule, and Malone make good ones, but they're not cheap. Other options may be available, but I don't know enough about them to say anything. BUT I had the rear crossbar pop off an Accord at highway speed, with two canoes tied on top. I got rid of this car quickly after that. Because of this issue, the racks that clip onto the door jambs (which is how they fit on an Accord) are a bit dicey. Also note that, if you have the factory roof rack rails on your Accord, they're not secured very well into the roof of the car, for hauling canoes... so getting the roof rail clips is a significantly risky option.

Whatever roofrack you use on this car, you need to tie down the boat very securely. This will include two straps around the "belly," and also tying the bow of the boat to the front bumper, AND the trailing end to the rear bumper. This will give you four completely independent tied-down points, so if any one fails, you'll probably be able to get the car off the road to a safe location, and have a decent chance of keeping the canoe on top of the car. Then you get to re-engineer it, on the side of the road...

If the canoe was a Grumman, or a plastic boat, I wouldn't be so concerned.... Might be worth considering KAS Transport, 315-538-9627 or kastransport@earthlink.net. Several folks here have used them to haul canoes, and I have yet to see a less than stellar review.

 

[moonshine30]

Hi there!! Thanks for replying, I appreciate it. I had pretty already come to the conclusion, or at least I was leaning that way, that blocks alone weren't going to be enough or a boat this size and definately not with the distance I will be going. I googled and found out that a lot of people have done it safely with blocks before and there lots of stories about " back in the day we had a 20 footer on a dautson" type comments, but they weren't going 70 miles an hour either.

Soo.... I was going to bit the bullet and go get the yakima racks, unless you think that is a bad idea because of my Honda. I have one step up as I already own 58 inch bars that I picked up for like $5 at a thrift store. Gonna put a wanted ad on craigslist and see if I can find someone who will sell me the Q towers here locally today for under $100. With REI's coupond right now, I could get a set of 4 towers for $135, but then I still have to buy the clips, so looking at around $200 if I buy those two parts new.

By the way, don't have factory racks, which means more spending coming my way.

Was gonna do the main racks and then two foam blocks on either side. Two pulley cinches for the main body, one running through the front doors and one throug the back doors. Then traingular tie downs coming from stern and bow anchored to the front and back of the car. And was going to double those two with two sets of ropes just in case.

Do you think this set up is realistically the only thing I can do?? I know from experience with tying smaller kayaks and canoes with just foam blocks on your car that you can tie it down tight enough, but then you end up denting the roof of the car or deforming the hull of the boat. You scratch the roof of your car trying to get it up there while keeping the blocks on the boat and then having to spend 10 minutes situating the blocks properly. And the the fact that this is a canoe and probably 50% bigger and 30% longer, I think your right that the blocks themselves are a no no.

So, the setup I suggested above with the racks and foam, do you think that will be decent enough and do you think that can be a long term solution?? I know I can buy canoe accesories to attach to the yakima racks. I honestly know nothing about racks really. Guess it's time to find out.......

Jennifer

 

[Dan Lindberg]

What Paul said.

If you have racks, what is the foam for?

If you can't find/get a maufactured rack setup, you could always rig up a set of 2x's temp to haul it.

If you get the xxxx Yakama's, get the gunwale brackets to protect the rails. Round bars are hard on soft wood.

Take somebody else with you to help handle the canoe, it will be heavy, you can't get it up alone.

Not sure what a "pulley cinch" is, but if you mean ratchet straps, don't over tighten them.

And until you're comfortable with your tie down system, keep the speed down, 50-55?

Good luck,
Dan

 

[pklonowski]

Foam blocks of this type: http://www.rutabaga.com/Clip-On-Universal-Classic-Gunwale-Block_p_1095.html
are a bit better than the plain ones, as these get sort of locked between the gunnels and the crossbars, but they compress over time, so you end up having to tighten the straps/ropes regularly. Checking them isn't a bad idea anyway, but it's better to check them and find them sufficiently tight, rather than keep finding them just a little loose. The gunnel brackets don't have this issue, but if you're looking to buy used, be careful to avoid the ones with little ridges on the top surface, where your wood gunnels will sit... don't want to put dents in the rails! The newer ones don't have these "features," and have a hard rubber pad instead. They're much better.

Tying the belly straps to the crossbars is usually all that's needed, but after my rack popped off the Accord, I added extra straps as you described, over the boat & through the doors, or sometimes just tied the second set such that it held the crossbars to the car. If you run into rain, you may get some dripping inside the car. It was a belt-and-suspenders approach, to be sure, but I didn't want to lose any canoes.

For the trailing end, I don't actually tie to the end of the canoe, I tie to the thwart or seat. This puts the stern tie-down in tension with the bow tie-down, and is much better for keeping the canoe secure.

And, what Dan said...

 

[Benson Gray]

You may also want to consider using a small trailer if you can borrow one. These usually make it much easier to load, tie down, and travel with an 18 foot long canoe behind a small car. However, renting a trailer and installing a hitch on your car (if it doesn't already have one) may cost as much as paying to have it delivered. Good luck,

Benson

 

[Mark Adams]

I'd really recommend KAS. I am in Nevada, and have used Steve for all my transport needs for the last few years. It beats the hell out of making long drives, and is usually far less expensive!

 

[Paul Waqué]

Webbing loops under the hood

If you drive, I support the idea of having tie downs towards the ends, especially the front. Your bars will be close together and 18' of twisting canoe will put quite a bit of torque on them.

Here is a description of installing webbing tie down points for the front from another forum:

Easiest option is to open up your hood and find some bolts right at the sides and front of the engine compartment that you can remove. Get some nylon tubular webbing and cut a couple of short loops. Make sure you flame the ends with a lighter or heat gun so they don't fray. Heat an awl, or something similar, and make holes in the loops big enough to acommodate the bolts. Secure the loops to the frame with the bolts. You may need to add a big fender washer of appropriate size on top of the loop. Make the loops long enough to stick out the side of your closed hood and you can run your tie down rope through them. When not carrying boats, tuck the loops inside the hood.

 

[goldencub]

Jen - here's my 2 cents worth. Definitely DO NOT use any painter rings, whether on the stem or the deck, as tie-down points. As noted above, use thwarts or seats for the bow and stern tie points. The bow tie serves to keep the canoe from blowing upwards and the stern tie serves to keep it from sliding back along the roof, Both these should be quite snug and not so tight as to even hint of deforming the hull! I think two ratchet-type web straps through the inside of the car will be OK as primary mid-boat hold-downs. Pad between the rails and the roof anyway that works. You could duct-tape the foam to either the canoe or the roof to keep them in place - maybe even run a second set of ratchet-straps just to hold them. I brought a 14 foot wood/canvas cartop boat - about 140 pounds - back home, about 300 miles, secured this way with absolutely no problems on the NYS Northway at 65 mph. The canoe has a good aerodynamic shape - not much resistance. Be careful if you encounter significant side winds, however. You might have to slow down a bit. Good luck on the trip! Al D

 

[Greg Nolan]

Consider using a double tie-down at front and rear running to the sides of the car (or at least at the front) -- the triangulation will give substantial resistance to side loads from wind.



I am not familiar with Hondas -- does your car have towing hooks or loops attached to the frame under front and rear (as Subarus do)? If so, they make fine canoe tie-down points.

And if you will be car-topping your canoe with any regularity, getting a good rack system with brackets will be worth it -- for ease of use and for peace of mind.

The canoe in the picture did not have useable thwarts or seats for tie-down points on or inside the canoe, so I jury rigged some with duct tape. With the duct tape tie-downs, with canoe brackets, good cam-buckle straps, and a Yakima rack gear, I had no problem with left-lane turnpike speeds putting me at risk of a speeding ticket.

 

[Mark Z.]

The above replies have very good information. Since you are leaving on Friday, it may be a little late to recommend Cliff Jacobson's book Wilderness Canoeing (NOT Expedition Canoeing) for a very good chapter on cartopping a canoe. He describes rigging a "bridle" system for attaching the front and rear of a canoe to the car especially for "high winds". I have used his system for canoes without hand carrying thwarts. This is much more secure than using deck or stem rings. If you Google "Cartopping Cliff Jacobson" you may get a hit that shows his bridle system. I have used it to cartop a birchbark canoe with pool noodles for foam blocks and rope tie downs through the front and rear doors of the car. The bridles served to tie down the bow and stern.
For the long term, it is recommended to get a commercial rack (I like the Yakima round bars with pipe insulation for padding) and find or make tie down points front and rear on your car. I have used the transport tie downs in the rear and convenient holes in the front frame to attach climbing carabiners. That plus two belly ropes over the middle of the canoe to the rack bars make a secure system. Learn the "Trucker's Hitch" from Cliff's book or use ratching straps. If you come to the Assembly at Paul Smith's, you can wander the parking lot and see many different methods of cartopping.
Good Luck and stop periodically to check the security of your ropes and straps.

 

[Greg Nolan]

and stop periodically to check the security of your ropes and straps.

Very good advice -- and the first stop should be after maybe 20 minutes of driving -- the initial vibration and wind forces will often "settle" the canoe, resulting in lines or straps that need just a little more tightening. But wind and vibration can loosen even a well-fastened load sometimes, so checking every so often is good practice.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

All good advice of course, i might add to Greg's suggestions and photo, i have 1\4" rope loops on the fender supports of my vehicles, the one time i transported with lines fastened under the bumper the wind around Superior on the way to Thunder Bay was so severe the boat still hunted around and the rubbing marred the paint. Lift the hood, flop the ropes out and tie off the front, for a really strong attachment run your lines through the gunwales between ribs. Saves tearing anything off the boat. Having said that, i trailer 90% of the time, and somewhere like JC Whitney should sell an aftermarket hitch relatively inexpensively. Good Luck!

 

[moonshine30]

Made it home safe!!!!! This canoe looks like its gonna eat my car:-D

Hi there everyone!! I made it home safe. Thank you for all the great suggestions and advice. I wasn't able to read most of it before I left, as I decided to leave a day early and so left thursday morning. I did go buy the yakima Q towers and clips before I left and tossed them in the car once I realized that the store I bought them from didn't have the time to install them. I already owned a pair of bars, so I just figured I would bring everything with me and set up the system when I got down there.

Thing is, I had a long way to drive and think about my set up and decided not to use the rack system based on the poster(sorry, don't remember your name) who mentioned the bars popping of his Honda. When I went to REI to get the rest of the Yakima stuff, I mentioned that to the sales guy and he confirmed that he had heard something like that before and that they do pop off every once in a while. He had a lady who returned one the other day because of that problem. Didn't want to take a chance and Im used to tying down with ropes anyway, so when I got down there, bought a yakima foam car topping kit for $35 as it was kinda last minute.

Spent about an hour tying down the boat. I bought this boat off of ebay, and self admittedly, I realize now that I don't know squat about these types of boats and may have gotten a bad deal or paid too much for what I got. They are completely different from modern stuff. Had the ebay seller kinda hovering and chatting with me while I tied everything down, so I only spent a few minutes looking at it before I loaded it. Had to take it anyway as he had a no return policy. I will be posting picture of the boat in another posting and I am requesting help from people who know more than I do(which is probably everyone) about what condition this boat is actually in. Any help would be apprecaited.

I drove very tentatively for the first hour, and as recommended by other posters, checked all my tie downs and cinch straps after 20 minutes of driving or so. I went 60 or 65 for the first 300 miles or so and then realized it wasn't going anywhere, so the last 300 I was going 70 with no problems whatsoever.

In case anyone is interested, here are some pictures of how I tied down. To sum it up:

1. Put foam blocks on boat after measuring car and proper placement.
2. toss boat on roof and re-adjust blocks(no, not by myself - will have to figure that one out)
3. apply two cinch straps, one going through front open doors and one through back open doors
4. Attach one hitch from stern to bumper using seat as an anchor point.
5. attach on hitch from bow to under hood using seat as an anchor point
6.attach two more hitches in stern of boat from seat to bumper
7. Tricky part, how to attach bow to under hood. One poster said use duck tape, but I wasn't able to see that posting before I left. I came up with pretty much the same idea on my own though, except I basically took a long rope and made a lasso and lassoed the bow snugly and then ran each end to the door posts that seperate the front and back doors.
8. Finally, after driving for ten minutes and having this afwful noise from the ratchets vibrating, I called my dad (who know everything!!), and he said to run rope from the front ratchet to the back ratchet on each side of the boat a couple of times and tighten snugly. Did that on both sides. He also said that where the ratchets make contact with the car they can rub off your car paint, so luckily I had two pairs of socks in the car and slide a sock slightly underneath each strap and double tied!! I figured at the most, I'd loose two pairs of socks!!

Viola!! Got here safely...... You should have seen how many looks I got goin down the highway though. Some people started giggling as they drove by, lost count of how many times that happened. Pulled into a drivethrough McDonalds and got to the pay window and the girl did a double take and started giggling and then grabbed her friend and they were both staring at me like I was a crazy person!!


Here are the pictures.... sorry for the long winded post. Maybe this will help some other newbie who can't afford racks either.

Jennifer

 

[Greg Nolan]

Never mind the gigglers -- what do they know? You did good getting your canoe home safely and rapidly, which is what you set out to do. And some of those looks you got were looks of jealousy, or perhaps just surprise and delight at seeing a big canoe on a smallish car.

You are absolutely right that wood and canvas canoes "are completely different from modern stuff" -- that's the point of having one.

Further comments on your latest post.

 

[pklonowski]

Well done! Congratulations on your new boat, and a safe long drive home!

I'm a bit surprised that the foam blocks stayed in place... did you have them tied to something?