Mildewcide?

greenvilleguy

'42 Yankee OTC
After searching the forum, I'm still confused about mildewcide. I have the untreated canvas from Northwoods. Should I add mildewcide to the:
  • Boiled Linseed oil I'll apply to the hull
  • The filler
  • The hull paint
  • or all three?
 
OK, I was thinking you oiled the outside of the hull to prevent it from absorbing water that gets between the planks and canvas.

Oil would definitely make the canoe heavier, so I'm all for leaving it off if I don't need it.
 
Though we all know of boatbuilders who routinely slather just about everything with linseed oil and swear by it, there are also some of us who have read the test results coming from sources like the Forest Products Lab, and avoid putting it on anything. It tends to test poorly as a preventative for weathering and decay, doesn't do well in terms of moisture exclusion and in some cases, it is even sighted as a potential source of "food" for some of the organisms that will eventually destroy the wood and/or canvas. In many cases, you're left with the feeling that it will probably be ineffective at best and possibly even do more harm than good.

In your original plan (add mildewcide to some part of the canvas/paint/filler skin and cover a linseed oil-coated hull with it) you would be attempting to prevent mildew and then placing that directly up against an oiled surface that seems to be a prime area to grow mildew (see exerpt shown below from a FPL publication).

As explained, mildew isn't going to directly harm the wood (or filler or enamel) but it will absolutely eat and deteriorate natural cotton canvas. That's the part of the skin that needs the protection, the canvas itself. Filler doesn't completely saturate the canvas and mildewcide isn't 100% effective, so there will still be plenty of raw canvas fibers present on the inside of the canoe's skin. Add a little water and between the oil, the cotton fibers and moisture, you will have provided a nice little smorgasbord with drinks for the mildew and various other hungry micro-critters - some of which prefer to dine on wood. Throw in some pleasant temperatures and they'll all be happy as clams.

The wood/canvas canoe is a marvelous invention and we have all seen how long they can last and how they can be repaired or restored and made good to go for another century or better. On the other hand, from a boatbuilding perspective, they're a hodge-podge of techniques that essentially doom them from the start (mixtures of materials which expand and contract with others that don't, unbedded raw wood joints, wood that's finished on one side but raw on the other, brass fasteners instead of the stronger and much more durable bronze, etc.) and we have all seen what happens to far too many of these boats when they no longer get proper maintenance and storage. I'm sure that there are plenty of folks who will disagree with me, but I see the use of linseed oil on a wood/canvas canoe as being another of these undesirable building practices. Though it may temporarily make the hull look like you're helping it, that's not likely to last very long and it would seem just as unlikely that it's really helping anything at all. If you take good care of your wood/canvas canoe and treat it as something of value, it should last just fine without linseed oil on anything. If you don't take good care of the boat, the addition of linseed oil isn't likely to make any difference.
 

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RE: "they're a hodge-podge of techniques that essentially doom them from the start..." Before I started down this road to perdition (or wherever it goes), I was told that all boats start sinking as soon as they're built... how fast they sink depends on whether/how well you do your maintenance. So is it really just a matter of picking your own poison? ;)
 
What Todd said, Mildew and any similar growth are all types of mold, some more destructive than the next. To kill or prevent, only something labelled a CIDE is effective, and tyically nasty as well, such as pressure treated wood. Consider using reguar canvas, and treat it when its on the boat. A product like the attached is what I've used, to date with good result. Note that it specifies canvas and rope coverage as well. Wet it out once the canvas is on the boat, proper PPE in place, and leave it outside for a day or two to dry, and fill away. Napthanate, nothing really new under the sun.... Ultimately, there is no subsitute for taking care of the boat, left outside perpetually mother nature will reclaim it.
http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/i...Ne-67n/Ntk-All_EN/R-I1874984?Ntt=preservative
 
brittle old wood

I have found Todd's advice very good, most recently to cause me canceling an order for clear penetrating epoxy sealer and replacing the wood instead. But I am puzzled by the recent remark about no lindseed oil on old boats. it is a well known thing that wood gets very brittle with age. I've recycled enough buildings to be very familiar with the tendancy to split or break even while it is very hard and difficult to put nails into. So if lindseed oil and turpentine are not to be our canoe anti-aging creams what is? Alternatively, do we just accept the brittleness and be more gentle with the bumps?
 
Some points to ponder:

1) Loss of flexibility in wood is not reversible. Oiling may make it softer, temporarily, but it does not restore the characteristics of fresh wood.

2) Linseed oil has little to no resistance against penetration of water, so the idea that oiling the hull will somehow reduce water absorption during use is a myth.

3) Linseed oil is inherently food for mildew.

4) Linseed oil darkens considerably with time, especially (according to the U.S. Forest Products Laboratory) with redwoods and cedars.

If the goal is to seal the hull exterior, then we are probably better off simply hitting it with thinned spar varnish. Otherwise, I personally see no benefit to this linseed oil treatment. If one insists, then tung oil, while more expensive, is superior to linseed oil in all categories...
 
Tung did a great job of restoring colour to my Champlain and cedarstrip after bleaching out a lot of stains, just get the good stuff and not the kind full of other crap. And not the polymerized stuff either, though thats great for buffing on furniture and rifle stocks.
 
Ever notice that anti-aging creams are mostly hype and don't do much? Maybe that's why they're sold on TV by 30 year-old supermodels and actresses who don't need them. My wife gets a big kick out of those ads.

Ever own a big disk grinder? If so, and if you ever took one to a hunk of cedar, you probably noticed that you can cut right through just about any coating or finish (varnish, paint, oil, epoxy, etc. it doesn't much matter) in a flash and what's right underneath it has no sign of ever being affected by the coating at all. Unless you happen to own some sort of pressure-treating equipment, like they use for telephone poles and green treated 2x4s, your coating or oil is going to be sitting on the surface with a very shallow amount of actual penetration into the wood. There is no way that this surface treatment is going to make the wood supple again because the vast majority of the piece is going to remain raw, dry wood. You might be able to make the surface look better and repel moisture better, but don't fool yourself into thinking that the application of linseed oil, or anything else, is going to soak deeply in there and rejuvinate the structure of an old, dried-out hunk of wood. It's just not going to happen.
 
After searching the forum, I'm still confused about mildewcide. I have the untreated canvas from Northwoods. Should I add mildewcide to the:
  • Boiled Linseed oil I'll apply to the hull
  • The filler
  • The hull paint
  • or all three?

Just curious: why did you get the untreated canvas when Thurlow also has treated?
 
Has anyone ever used CPES, the cold clear penetrating epoxy sealer?
I know some restorers use it faithfully? I am told it has
excellent penetrating abilities and unlike other epoxies
It stays flexible....also said to kill all bacteria!
 
Has anyone ever used CPES, the cold clear penetrating epoxy sealer?
I know some restorers use it faithfully? I am told it has
excellent penetrating abilities and unlike other epoxies
It stays flexible....also said to kill all bacteria!

I have used it on a de-laminated plywood core on our Catalina 22. It did the job very well, traveling several feet through the plywood. The stuff is incredibly obnoxious and toxic smelling; also very thin. It traveled so far that I didn't realize until too late that it had puddled in a remote part of the boat and set up. It apparently provides an excellent base for paint or varnish.

I am rather disinclined to use it on a wood and canvas boat, but on rib tips it is tempting. You would have to provide a dam of some sort to keep it in place while it soaked into the end grain. I would normally use masking tape for this purpose, but I suspect that CPES would dissolve many tape adhesives, so testing is in order.

Bear in mind that I used Smith's brand, I used it years ago so it could be different now, and other brands may behave differently. http://www.smithandcompany.org/CPES/index.html
 
Let me be a defender of the old and oily!

I agree with just about everthing that Todd states about linseed oil. It does not stop the absorption of water, it does not restore old wood to new, it is good mildew food but there is more to it than just that.

It does help slow down the absorption of the water so if your on the water for just the day the boat is not going to absorb as much water as it would of.
The oil is going to make the old planking more flexible than it was when it was dry, not like its new, but better than its present condition.
Boiled Linseed oil is good mildew food but fortunately over a little bit of time it does cure and ceases to so yummy to those little molds.
The canvas is the real food for the mildew. Not just the canvas but the starch that is used in the weaving process is even a better food. that is why the canvas needs to be treated with a mildewcide.

After restoring hundreds of canoes it is quite obvious that hulls that have been treated with oil are for the most part in better condition than the untreated ones. A little bit of old varnish added to the oil can help seal the outside hull but overall the oil is less expensive than using good varnish on the outside hull that will not be visible. Mildew and mold on the wood hull that has any reasonable care, has only been a problem when the canvas is full of mold and then it can effect the wood.
 
Just a word of thanks to everyone who has contributed, the experienced particulary. We are dealing with the basic issues of restoration. Here's where the canvas hits the planking.
 
Untreated canvas can be treated with mildewcide both before and after installation, but remember any word that ends with -cide causes the death of something. Borax dissolved in water has been touted to be a good mildewcide with very few side effects to other living things. Chlorine bleach has also been used,but deteriorates cotton canvas. Ethylene glycol in water is fantastic- it will kill almost anything, dogs, cats,fish, people, even toenail fungus.
Personally, whether using mildewcide treated or untreated canvas, I recommend oiling the hull with thinned linseed oil and turpentine; allow to dry thoroughly; varnish the hull with cheap spar varnish; AND STORE THE CANOE RIGHT SIDE UP so that the water has a chance to evaporate, and does NOT migrate to the ends and rot EVERYTHING !!!!!
 
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