Flat Finish

[Fitz]

I noticed at Assembly that there is a trend towards a flat finish on the interior of canoes. No more glossy spar varnish.

I really don't care, either way, because I think it is a personal decision for the folks that restored the canoe. But I am curious about the trend and I just wanted to open this up for discussion. I personally, somewhat, tend to think that the flat finish looks unfinished, but I am not sold on that idea. I think there may be room for a flat finish on some canoes. I also think that varnish is ages old and goes well on canoes.

Anyway, I am just feeling about. What are the pluses and minuses of a flat finish? Why do you like it? Maybe there is historic precedence for a flat finish. Also I routinely have an argument with the modern canoe folks that oil their gunwales - nice temporary look, but does the protection stack up? Please comment if you like, otherwise I will keep using my shades .

Fitz

 

[pklonowski]

I can't speak to flat vs gloss varnish, but my experience with oil finish is that it takes a lot more effort to keep it looking nice than I first anticipted. Yes, you can read that as I was negligent in my gunnel maintenance! When I overhauled the canoe (a solo cedar strip), I had to replace the gunnels, thwarts, & seat... and it got varnish all around. Same with my paddles: as I eventually get around to the maintenance that they require, they've been getting varnished. So far I have no reason to look back, and haven't had any reason to do additional work on any of them.

 

[Ed Moses]

Fitz,
I am a convert to matte varnish. You probably noticed at assembly that all the mahogany and spruce rail caps on my "Work-in-Progress" 15' Morris was matte varnish. Years ago ,refinishing old furniture, I liked a matte finish. The epiphanes matte is one of the nicest and easy brushing varnishes I have ever used. It really goes on smooth and easy and levels out beautifully. I really think that on an old canoe, it compliments the patina of the old , aged cedar and other woods that the canoe has. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Ed

 

[ken.kelly]

old & new wood blending

Fitz, Paul and Ed
This is a good question and I'll be interested to hear why others that have used flat.

I went with flat varnish on the courting canoe I had at the Assembly because it seemed to fit with the approach to 'preserve' as much of the original wood as we could. Some of the interior planking has enough crack and wear 'character' it could have (maybe should have) been replaced and I think that the gloss varnish would magnify the contrast of the old planking to the new planking we had to add. I don't know what it would have looked like in gloss, so maybe it would have been fine - but what I've seen on other restorations made me think this was the right thing to do.

For this canoe we did the same flat on the original decks to help repairs blend-in and even did matte paint to be consistent in this look. I think it did accomplish the goal...hope you and others agree, or at least don't dislike it.

I have many finished in all gloss varnish and paint and like those very much. I'm not committed to repeat this approach. This specific canoe was more beat up than others in my group, so keeping as much original wood as possible presented more compromise issues than usual and I think the flat finishes help the result look its best.
Thanks!

 

[Craig Johnson]

Fitz
I think the matte finish is coming from the furniture tradition where a gloss finish is less common. For one thing a gloss finish shows every little imperfection in the finish and then it is also like a mirror in that you see reflected light more than the grain of the wood. I think that as these canoes become more rare and more expensive they are looked upon more as sculpture or art and the matte finish is just more attractive. On the down side for those being used regularly the matte finish probably isn't as durable as the gloss but then again few are being used so hard nowadays that it makes any difference. I have both and a good gloss finish is going to turn to matte after enough use and abrasion anyway, maybe that is why some think a matte finish seems more correct on an old canoe. Just my thoughts. Thanks for the interesting question.
Craig

 

[Andre Cloutier]

Ken, beautiful canoe. would have really showed to put any new wood in it, excellent job.
What are the pluses and minuses of a flat finish? Why do you like it? Maybe there is historic precedence for a flat finish.
Concerning the finish, I figured it would be in keeping with the condition you would expect the older boats to be in when found, since they likely didnt put 5 or 7 coats on at the factory, and they would dull up with years of use. I do like gloss, but find sometimes it looks out of place on a weathered older boat.
Ultimately, satin or gloss they all burn the same.

 

[Dan Miller]

One thing to look at is how varnish formulations have changed over the years. I know Dave Baker researched this extensively, and came up with a not-so-glossy varnish on one of the canoes he restored. He then had it out with the judges at the Clayton boat show for losing points for this less-than-glossy-but-probably-historically-correct finish.

I used to complain about the overly glossy paint jobs on canoes, but then saw photos of the Waltham Boat & Canoe Co. exhibit at the Boston Mechanics Expo where the canoes are clearly high-gloss.

Now, of course, any of us who are putting on more than two coats of varnish are over-restoring... Rushton, for example, in the 1880s, finished with one coat of oil, one coat of shellac, and one coat of varnish. By 1904, He had changed, and was now using one coat of filler, two of varnish (unless you were in a hurry, then two coats of shellac would replace on of the varnish coats).

Fortunately, varnish is one of those things that is easily reversible, so do what you prefer now, change it later if you want...

 

[jdm6593]

Part of the historic precedent that might be considered is the large number of small builders in the wilderness around the Adirondacks. My understanding is that most of these boats were finished in oil; definitely boats for hard use. It makes great sense in that varnish is fussier for storage, whereas oil should survive years of sitting in a cabinet. I don’t believe most of these boats were expected to last very long.

So, do we want to be historically accurate, or do we want a pretty boat? I think most of us would agree that a two-part polyurethane is out of place. There is quite a spectrum from extreme gloss to dull oil to choose from. I have wondered for years whether high gloss was more durable. It seems easier to clean, especially in the case of the polyurethanes that nothing will stick to.

I can imagine being infuriated over losing points in a show with a boat that is more historically accurate, but we are all human, and we tend to like the gee-whiz shiny toys. I agree with Ken that each boat should be considered separately. That matte finish looks great on that well aged wood. My new boats will probably get at least moderate gloss.

Joe
Rushton Indian Girl 16 S/N 2261
CLC Sassafras 16
Pygmy Taiga 17

 

[crosscuts]

Finishes

A mixture of finishes depending on the condition of the old canoe is often appealing. A high gloss finish on a scarred and discolored interior magnifies each each ancient wound. Beautiful wood such as a long deck either new or old likely calls for a high gloss finish. Epiphanes high gloss and matte are favorites but taking it is a step farther a good industrial paint outlet can provide a bottle of flattening material and small amounts added to the matte Epiphanes can make the finish almost disappear. It is my understanding that high gloss finishes are a relatively recent development for the yacht industry. The original old canoe builders used flat because that was available and working canoes did not need or want a fancy fragile finish.

R.C.

 

[shelldrake]

I wonder if the matte varnishes have as much UV protection formulated in them as the gloss. I know that with traditional varnish work on boats that are constantly exposed to the weather, once the gloss starts to fade later in the boating season, a maintenance coat is critical. On a canoe that sporadically gets exposed to the elements flat or gloss is probably more a question of personal preference than durability. Matt

 

[Easternrivers]

As I understand it, perhaps wrongly, matte finish has a higher concentration of solids in the formula which provides the matte finish and the gloss does not, and I also believe I read that gloss had a better resistance to UV damage and is actually a tougher finish?

Again, I could be wrong on this.
BTW, when I opened the pics above with the matte finish interior, I was blown away by that elegant oiled look and the absence of the plastic appearance of a high gloss finish.
I believe I may change my intention to varnish my project coming up with the gloss and go with more of a satin or matte finish.
Always learning something new!

 

[paul s]

I personally like the look of both matte and gloss finishes. In my business of hardwood floor refinishing, we almost always use a semi-gloss. on canoes i mostly use gloss varnish. however on my current project (charles river builder long deck courting canoe) i plan on using a matte finish on interior. and a gloss on all the mahogany trim. i used matte on my stripper interior i built several years ago. it has held up nicely but more importanly it doesn't magnify my sanding imperfections which with a gloss would be very noticable. i also would like to say that the pictures of kens courting canoe with the matte finished decks looks fantastic.

 

[Ed Moses]

Ken,

I have some real nice pics of you solo paddling in the mist in the canoe you have done in matte varnish. If I cannot get them added to Fitz's thread of assembly pics, I'll send you an invitation to view them on kodakgallery (where we store our pics).

Ed

 

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gloss varnish does have slightly higher UV resistance due to its ability to reflect light away, but for our purposes, the difference is likely quite small and nowhere near as important as the amount and quality of UV absorbers the manufacturer adds to the varnish. Then again, since these absorbers work by converting UV to heat so that it can dissipate, and they do slowly get used up while doing their jobs and need periodic renewal, increased reflectivity still might come into play to an extent. All in all though, it's a lucky canoeist that gets to use his boat frequently enough to start worrying much about serious UV damage to the interior varnish.

Matte and satin varnish are that way because they contain small amounts of very finely ground minerals. That's what does the dulling of the varnish's natural gloss. It's also why it's pretty critical to stir the varnish well before application. Ideally, the matte varnish should be saved for the last coat or two, with the buildup layers underneath being regular (gloss) varnish. This is because the mineral content makes the satin and matte varnishes slightly more cloudy, which can start to show if you build up multiple layers of them.

 

[Pete Mathews]

To answer the question from Shelldrake, no, typically flat, matte or "satin" varnishes have no ultraviolet protection at all. They were billed as interior varnishes and it was felt by some manufacturers there was no need for UV protection in that application. It is true that they will not show imperfections to the extent gloss or high gloss varnishes will. It's difficult to say how this lack of UV protection will effect longevity of the finish as most of these boats, I presume, are only subjected to UV when in use and stored indoors when not in use. They probably will not have the abrasion resistance of a gloss, but this is not universally true as some have made a one part urethane based satin varnish.

 

[jdm6593]

Since many of our members use Epifanes I looked at their website and found the following info on their matte finish:

“Wood Finish Matte, the companion product to the Wood Finish Gloss, offers a no sanding solution in a matte finish. It’s a one-component varnish alternative based on urethane alkyd resins and tung oil and contains U.V. absorbers. Specifically formulated for oily woods like teak and iroco, Wood Finish Matte looks its best when applied over multiple coats of Wood Finish Gloss, Epifanes Clear Glass Varnish or Epifanes Polyurethane Clear Gloss. Its finish is a rich matte with a clear amber color and has the appearance of being hand-rubbed. It offers superior flow and durability and excellent scratch resistance and exterior weather resistance. No sanding between coats applies if recoated within 72 hours. Otherwise a light sanding is required.”

So for this particular product anyway, most of our concerns should not apply. Now I hope I don’t get slapped with a lawsuit for quoting their site.
http://www.epifanes.com/eproducts.htm

 

[Andre Cloutier]

First old boat I used Interlux Goldspar on, wow does it look good on the old girl. Now a part of the paint lineup.

 

[WoodNCanvas]

Nice Andre....I'll have to check that out myself....

 

[yeolwoodsman]

The Interlux Goldspar says it's an interior finish on Jamestown Distributors site. Am I looking at the right thing? And how do you think it will hold up? I think it looks great on the canoe by the way. This is a very interesting thread, I'm looking forward to more comments and insights.

I actually thought solids contents were the other way around with gloss having more than satin, which leads to a quicker buildup in finish. Very interesting!

 

[jchu]

Wow that looks great, I'd do it, and could do it over a job already done. Anyone have a pic with the epifanis matte over gloss for uv protection?