Canoe serial # info

Hi:
I just picked up 3 canoes. Can someone send the info on them please.
one is an Old Town OTCA serial # 94733 17' with sail rig and a neat brass centerboard.
The next is an Old Town #109182. Charles River model maybe.
The last is a Kennebec sailing canoe with a tough to read # 22620 17'
Thanks, Kevin Martin

The Kennebec canoe with serial number 22620 is shown on pages 136 and 137 of volume four in the Kennebec ledgers. This was assigned to 17 foot long Kennebec model type A. It was planked by Roy on the June 29th, 1935. The canvas covering and first filler coat were applied by Giroux on the same day. C. Thib. applied the second filler coat on July 6th, 1935. It was railed by Mansell on the same day. The "F 22" (Function number 22 or the keel?) was completed on July 13th, 1935 by Thib. The "F 24" (Function number 24 or the thwarts?) were completed by Thib. on June 20th, 1936. The original color was "gr" (green?). It shipped on June 23rd, 1936 to location "36-197". This location is probably an order number but we don't currently have enough information to identify it.

The scans of this build record can be found by following the links at the attached thumbnail images below. The original Kennebec records are reproduced through the courtesy of the Maine State Museum.

The microfilms and scans of these records were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) as you probably know well. I hope that you will renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to join.

It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if these descriptions don't match your canoes. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

Benson

The Old Town canoe with serial number 109182 is a 17 foot long, CS (Common Sense or middle) grade, HW (Heavy Water) model with red Western cedar planking, open spruce gunwales, oak decks, oak trim, a keel, and a floor rack. It was built between February and March, 1931. The original exterior paint color was deep(?) orange. It shipped on April 24th, 1931 to Patterson, New Jersey. It was returned for credit on September 19th, 1931 and then shipped to Wolfeboro, New Hampshire on June 17th, 1932 as shown on the back side of the card.

The Old Town canoe with serial number 94733 is a 17 foot long, AA grade, Sailing Canoe model with red Western cedar planking, open mahogany gunwales, mahogany decks, mahogany trim, a keel, outside stems, a floor rack, centerboard, bang plate, rudder, and mast step. It was built between May and June, 1927. The original exterior paint color was dark green. It shipped on June 23rd, 1927 to Wolfeboro, New Hampshire. Please post some pictures of the centerboard and trunk on this canoe. Thanks,

Benson

Is the general form of the sailing canoe model the same as the HW?

It looks like an OTCA to me. Has the same size decks and general shape. I put it under my shed out back. Will try to take photos tomorrow. Working alone now so it depends on if I get help. The trunk is thin mahogany that goes from one thwart to another. Keel is wider maybe 4" where the slot is cut with a pivot pin through the side of the keel for the centerboard. About 1/4" brass board with holes in the top for cotter pins for lowering to a few positions. Kevin

There is a small fleet of these on Big Wolf Pond in the Adirondacks. I believe I was told they are Otcas as well.

Here are some photos of the OT sailing canoe.
Kevin

Very interesting! Have you measured the size of the boom, yard, and calculated the size of the original sail? I have this type of a jaw for my 1919 sailing canoe but wasn't sure that it came from Old Town until now. Does this canoe also have the shallow triangular rudder that was typical of this period? Does it have a round hole in the mast step like the one from 1919 shown below? Thanks,

Benson

The mast measures 9'8" and spars are 12'6". Seems like the typical size. There are screw holes every ft or so along the spars so it must have had a track or something. The mast step is round. A photo of the rudder is below. I noticed in an old forum post that you were looking for info on the old style rudders. The photos show one I have. I always thought it was a Rushton from looking at the catalog info I have. After seeing your post it may be an Old Town. Kevin

The chart at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=1064&d=1136757320 indicates a 65 square foot sail. Do you need a sail to use as a pattern? What is the distance between the pintles on your other rudder? Great stuff!

Benson

kmartin said:

Here are some photos of the OT sailing canoe.
Kevin

Click to expand...

Mine is set up exactly like this including a rudder that looks like the first one in your set of rudder photo's. As noted by Dan it is what's known up here as a "Wolf Pond" canoe. I have always wondered if there were others built. Now I'm curious how many. Where did you find yours?
Heavy canoe eh? This is one that I need help to carry.

This canoe was ordered by someone on Lake Wentworth in Wolfboro NH. Then sold to someone else on the lake and I got it from him. Benson The old rudder hardware is spaced 6" apart.

MGC said:

Now I'm curious how many.

Click to expand...

The Old Town database project lists three of these canoes as shown in the build records below. This is not enough for an accurate estimate of the total number built but there were probably many more than the five that have been identified so far in this thread.

I measured the sail rig for my 1919 sailing canoe today and it is slightly smaller than Kevin's. The mast is 117 inches, the boom is 135 inches, and the yard is 138 inches. The sail is badly ripped but appears to have been 132 inches on the foot, 136 inches on the luff, and 160 inches on the leech with no roach or battens. This works out to be about 60 square feet and is much more vertical than the traditional lateen shape. This one also has "Leg of Mutton" hand written on the corner of the sail at the clew. How big are the ones on "Wolf Pond" canoes and are they still using cotton sails or have they converted to Dacron?

The gudgeons on my 1919 sailing canoe are 4.5 inches apart so Kevin's rudder must be from a double ended rowing boat which has a much longer and more vertical stem.

We'll have to get these all together for the Assembly this year!

Benson

Kevin, Benson, great exchange! Thanks!

Ed

On the water

The second image below shows how it looks on the water last weekend for anyone who wasn't at the Assembly. The first image is from the 1927 Old Town catalog which confirms that this canoe was built on the Otca form as Kevin and Dan suggested previously. Kevin also confirmed that the bronze centerboard alone weighs 16 pounds.

Benson

Benson Gray said:

On the water

The second image below shows how it looks on the water last weekend for anyone who wasn't at the Assembly. The first image is from the 1927 Old Town catalog which confirms that this canoe was built on the Otca form as Kevin and Dan suggested previously. Kevin also confirmed that the bronze centerboard alone weighs 16 pounds.

Benson

Click to expand...

Hello Benson,
Can you tell me the length and diameters of the mast, boom and spar of the one you posted a photo of? Mine is a 16', 1936 IT Yankee and I am researching the ideal spar dimensions. I've also attached an illustration I found of the 45 square lateen rigg that I'm interest in building. attached is a chart of the mast and boom lengths, but nothing on it for length/diameter of the yard spar.

Also, is Sitka Spruce the norm or something else?

ColinRowntree said:

Can you tell me the length and diameters of the mast, boom and spar of the one you posted a photo of?

Click to expand...

The short answer is yes, it has a 153 inch boom and a 150 inch yard but that information may not help you much. This is a 73 square foot leg-o'-mutton rig from 1927 which has a completely different geometry from a 45 square foot lateen rig in 1936 (if you care about being period correct). The first link below shows the progression of Old Town sail rigs from 1907 to 1932.

The chart of the mast and boom lengths you provided has no information about the yard spar because the boom and yard were exactly the same size on those rigs. This information and more is available at the second link below. It also has a page indicating that booms (and yards) were '1"-1 3/8"-1 1/4"' and masts were '1 7/8"-1 1/2"' in diameter.

The last link below may also interest you. It shows a broad variety of sailing canoes including my black canoe with two different leg-o'-mutton rigs (the 73 square foot one is a tanbark sail and the 60 square foot is a white sail), along with a 55 square foot red lateen rig sail. There is also a set of instructions for making your own sailing rig.

Let me know if this doesn't answer your questions or if there is anything else that I can do to help,

Benson

Benson Gray said:

The short answer is yes, it has a 153 inch boom and a 150 inch yard but that information may not help you much. This is a 73 square foot leg-o'-mutton rig from 1927 which has a completely different geometry from a 45 square foot lateen rig in 1936 (if you care about being period correct). The first link below shows the progression of Old Town sail rigs from 1907 to 1932.

The chart of the mast and boom lengths you provided has no information about the yard spar because the boom and yard were exactly the same size on those rigs. This information and more is available at the second link below. It also has a page indicating that booms (and yards) were '1"-1 3/8"-1 1/4"' and masts were '1 7/8"-1 1/2"' in diameter.

The last link below may also interest you. It shows a broad variety of sailing canoes including my black canoe with two different leg-o'-mutton rigs (the 73 square foot one is a tanbark sail and the 60 square foot is a white sail), along with a 55 square foot red lateen rig sail. There is also a set of instructions for making your own sailing rig.

Let me know if this doesn't answer your questions or if there is anything else that I can do to help,

Benson

Thread 'Old Town canoe sailing rig evolution'

Jan 2, 2009

The Old Town Canoe Company catalogs show an interesting progression of the standard sailing rigs over the years as shown in the catalog pages attached below. The first sailing canoe was shown in 1907 with tear drop shaped leeboards and no rudder. The next major change was to a more square leeboard with a handle on top in 1913. A larger leg-o-mutton rig was also introduced this year as shown at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=3994 and http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5094&d=1213546981 in use. A square rudder was first offered in 1917 and shown in a...

• Benson Gray
• Replies: 4
• Forum: Canoe Sailing

Thread 'Old Town canoe sail rig information'

Jan 8, 2006

I was researching the original sizes of the Old Town Canoe sails and found some information that might interest anyone else with plans to restore one. The images below are the original company notes on the topic over the years.

The first image gives the sail sizes in square feet and the luff, leach, foot, and roach measurements. More information about these terms can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parts_of_a_sail or any good sailing book. Another good resource is "Canoe Rig - The Essence and the Art" by Todd Bradshaw which is available from...

• Benson Gray
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Canoe Sailing

• 

Thread 'Show me your Sailing canoe pictures!'

Oct 26, 2020

I have resuscitated my once healthy sailing interest this summer with a very lichen covered Sunfish and I would love to sail a canoe.
I am hungry for more pictures of sailing canoe rigs, parts and setups.

I have "The Book" and have been reading as much as I can. I have standard canoe old town boats to set up in this way and would love to see what those look like all set up.

I would like to take a canoe on a weekend trip somewhere to paddle (CT to NH) and have the option to sail or paddle on one of the bigger NH lakes. Looking at something like a lanteen with a smaller sail area so I...

• floydvoid
• Replies: 27
• Forum: Canoe Sailing

Click to expand...

Thanks so much Benson,
So, from what you wrote and what I found in one of the other thread attachments, for a 45 sq ft sail:

Mast: 6’ 6”
Yard: 10’ 4”
Boom: 10’ 4”

Boom/Yard Diameter: 1” - 1 3/8” - 1 1/4”
Mast Diameter 1 7/8” - 1 1/2”

Another question is when you say boom/yard diameter 1” - 1 3/8” - 1 1/4”, are the first and last numbers the two ends, and if so, which of them is the one that connect to the boom?
And for Mast Diameter 1 7/8” - 1 1/2”, I assume that means the larger number as at the bottom where the mast steps and the other is the top of the mast?

And lastly, is Sitka Spruce preferred, or something else?

Thanks!

Yes, the boom/yard and mast are all tapered. The old style ones taper more than the newer ones. The widest part is at the bottom (or nearest the jaw/mast connection in the case of the boom). The 1927 rigs shown on the centerboard canoe have more taper than the newer ones shown in the link below on canoes from 1936 and 1958. The older style mast simply had a small ordinary pulley at the top and the newer ones have a shiv (or large pulley embedded within the top of the mast). The second link below also has some detailed dimensions for a 55 square foot sail rig with a shiv in the mast.

Clear spruce is the wood of choice and Sitka should be fine. The home made plans posted in the previous link sugested that "straight-grained pine 2 x 4's cut into 2 x 2's" can be rounded to work as well.

Have fun,

Benson