old Chestnut decal?
- Thread starter Graham
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
I may have answered my own question. Roger MacGregor, on page 260 of When the Chestnut Was in Flower, refers to an early decal (transfer) used before 1910, that sounds a lot like this one. It was too worn to read, so can't be sure it's the same, but the description is similar. Seems the later decal was in use from then right until the move in '74. This probably should be moved to the research forum...
Does your canoe exhibit other pre-fire (1904-1921) characteristics? See the Chestnut entry in the KnowledgeBase.
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
For sale here http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-veh...yaks-paddle-Chestnut-Canoe-W0QQAdIdZ496464961
not a pre fire boat from what is visible, but an older one nonetheless. Several variants of Chestnut decals used over the years; this is a very nice early one maybe 30s or 40s.
not a pre fire boat from what is visible, but an older one nonetheless. Several variants of Chestnut decals used over the years; this is a very nice early one maybe 30s or 40s.
Dick Persson
Canoe builder & restorer
That decal is too big and most likely a reproduction of an old decal from sometime around 1910 to 1921. The Chestnut decals used before 1921 were smaller in size. The decals in the comparison below, are individually of different sizes in reality.
Dick Persson
Buckhorn Canoe Company
www.buckhorncanoes.com
Dick Persson
Buckhorn Canoe Company
www.buckhorncanoes.com
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
There we go - thanks Dick! Nice pic layout. There were several warning signs about the boat, the main one is what seems to me to be an odd (for Chestnut) thwart placement. But it seems sound enough, and has an interesting owner history. Going to need a bigger garage.
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
... it does appear to meet all the pre-fire attributes of a 16' cruiser
, rounded decks, small cant ribs, tapered gunnels (tapered up as well as in). It uses slotted screws, and has quite a bit of shaping to the seats. The inside finish has a consistent red-ish tone. The decal is very detailed, and the gold print for the city and patent only show up if you look at it in the right direction. I've taken a few as-is pictures. The canvas is still the original, but it's been re-painted a standard green. The original colour attached to the filler is a very bright green. The wood all appears to be in great shape. No builders marks on the paddles though, they'd been revarnished.
And the thwart placement mystery... they'd been moved, I'm not sure why. The old holes are still there but plugged. Maybe to open it up a bit?
I think a good washing, remove the peeling paint and refinish in the original green. Then just use it on Sundays...
, rounded decks, small cant ribs, tapered gunnels (tapered up as well as in). It uses slotted screws, and has quite a bit of shaping to the seats. The inside finish has a consistent red-ish tone. The decal is very detailed, and the gold print for the city and patent only show up if you look at it in the right direction. I've taken a few as-is pictures. The canvas is still the original, but it's been re-painted a standard green. The original colour attached to the filler is a very bright green. The wood all appears to be in great shape. No builders marks on the paddles though, they'd been revarnished.And the thwart placement mystery... they'd been moved, I'm not sure why. The old holes are still there but plugged. Maybe to open it up a bit?
I think a good washing, remove the peeling paint and refinish in the original green. Then just use it on Sundays...
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
Hi Graham,
fantastic boat, regardless of whether its a pre-fire or post 1921, either way its an early one for sure. How wide is the cant? Also, concerning the thwarts, what is the width of the stock where it attaches to the gunwales? On both my pre-fire cruiser and pleasure, the centre thwart is 2.5" and the rearward one is very slender, only 1 3/4". In addition, are the seats chamfered on the underside as well? My understanding is that several Canadian builders had chamfered seats, my early Canadian Canoe Co. model 50 had them as well but my early Chestnuts are chamfered underneath. Is the keel a shoe keel? the screws appear to be off centre but perhaps its just the way they appear in the photo. Finally, if you lay the boat on the ground, what is the height of the stems measured from the ground? It has the early looking stem profile. Again, nice boat - i wish i had gone after it when i saw the ad, but really how many can you chase?
fantastic boat, regardless of whether its a pre-fire or post 1921, either way its an early one for sure. How wide is the cant? Also, concerning the thwarts, what is the width of the stock where it attaches to the gunwales? On both my pre-fire cruiser and pleasure, the centre thwart is 2.5" and the rearward one is very slender, only 1 3/4". In addition, are the seats chamfered on the underside as well? My understanding is that several Canadian builders had chamfered seats, my early Canadian Canoe Co. model 50 had them as well but my early Chestnuts are chamfered underneath. Is the keel a shoe keel? the screws appear to be off centre but perhaps its just the way they appear in the photo. Finally, if you lay the boat on the ground, what is the height of the stems measured from the ground? It has the early looking stem profile. Again, nice boat - i wish i had gone after it when i saw the ad, but really how many can you chase?
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
I looked up some numbers for you: The cant rib width is 3 inches vs. 5 on my later cruiser. The regular ribs start much earlier than on the later (30's?) boat (see photo). There is a tapered shoe keel of about a half inch max height. The ground to stem top height is a hair under 25 inches (measured on grass).
The end width for the main thwart is just under 2.5 inches, 1.5 at the handhold. The other thwart is the same, and here's what we discovered. It looks like the main thwart was moved back 14 inches (you can see the old holes in the photo), and was 30.5 inches vs. 31 on my other boat. This had the effect of making the outwale width at center 34 inches instead of 32. The bow seat and the thwart right behind it appear to have been period but non-standard additions and are wider than the other boat by almost 2 inches. This has pulled the boat open a bit, and it looks like the bow deck is even slightly pulled apart. Someone has widened the boat (factory?). So that might explain why they're both wide thwarts.
Another mystery... doing some paint checking, it appears that the keel was red, then slate, then light green, then dark green. The canvas only shows light green and dark green. But it doesn't appear that the keel was ever off, so the canvas couldn't have been replaced. Would they have put a red keel on and then painted it green at the factory? There is red in the screw slots on the stem, you would think that would have been cleaned out if those screws had to be removed (hard to unscrew with paint in the slots). And there is also some red on the bottom of the outwales. Could it have been some kind of wood primer?
Other differences from the later boat are 2.75 inch planks instead of 3.75, keel screws every rib instead of every other, maple thwarts instead of oak. But in many ways they are very similar.
How's that for details
The end width for the main thwart is just under 2.5 inches, 1.5 at the handhold. The other thwart is the same, and here's what we discovered. It looks like the main thwart was moved back 14 inches (you can see the old holes in the photo), and was 30.5 inches vs. 31 on my other boat. This had the effect of making the outwale width at center 34 inches instead of 32. The bow seat and the thwart right behind it appear to have been period but non-standard additions and are wider than the other boat by almost 2 inches. This has pulled the boat open a bit, and it looks like the bow deck is even slightly pulled apart. Someone has widened the boat (factory?). So that might explain why they're both wide thwarts.
Another mystery... doing some paint checking, it appears that the keel was red, then slate, then light green, then dark green. The canvas only shows light green and dark green. But it doesn't appear that the keel was ever off, so the canvas couldn't have been replaced. Would they have put a red keel on and then painted it green at the factory? There is red in the screw slots on the stem, you would think that would have been cleaned out if those screws had to be removed (hard to unscrew with paint in the slots). And there is also some red on the bottom of the outwales. Could it have been some kind of wood primer?
Other differences from the later boat are 2.75 inch planks instead of 3.75, keel screws every rib instead of every other, maple thwarts instead of oak. But in many ways they are very similar.
How's that for details
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
... stopped in at the Canadian Canoe Museum, and found a boat with the identical old decal, rounded deck, slot screws, etc. Looked a little wider, and might have had wider planks (was hanging from the ceiling so hard to get a measurement). But it looked just as aged. It was Trudeau's personal Chestnut canoe, called ça Ira. Unfortunately the curator, Jeremy Ward, wasn't there, but hopefully he has more info. Great place.
Andre Cloutier
Firestarter. Wicked Firestarter.
Thats an old Bob's special, but its not a pre-fire boat from what i recall. There is a nice closed gunwale Chestnut sponson canoe, but its covered in red and green paint. You will find Chestnut decks varied, not only in species but also in the amount of crown and depth of undercut. Dont get too hung up on screws, they often used what was available and all bets are off if the boat was worked on at some point in its life. I've seen drywall screws more times than i care to count..... How did the pre-fire discussion start on your latest purchase, did the seller offer it up or were you tending towards it?
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
I had a good look at the 1910... it was interesting as it had the thin wide cant ribs like the later boats. The feature that is clearly early is the closed rib gunwales, but there weren't a lot of other clues.
The Bobs had this same decal, with the gold lettering. I'll suggest it fits between Dick's ca.1908 and the ca.1921 samples based on the design detail. At least I'm confident it's real since it's on a canoe with a known history. I stopped by and had a nice chat with Dick on Tuesday (was up doing some paddling) and we discussed the way the boats were difficult to date based on features, changes often being based on what was at hand, and custom options.
There was no suggestion of it being an older boat from the owner... she saw it in a neighboring boathouse shortly after building their cottage in 1959, and purchased it. It looked old then, so it got a coat of paint and a side decal. The history before that is unknown. Her husband still has his unrestored `69 pickup in perfect shape, so taking care of things was not unusual. I was just going based on this decal on that nicely rounded deck (how this thread started). And I hadn't seen slot screws used everywhere before (even the deck screws).
So I guess I still don't know... not that it really matters. If Trudeau was born in 1919, and he used his as a kid... but then who knows how long that decal was used for, or if his boat was new when he got it.
Good to hear your opinions, it's great to have access to so much experience. Nice that these cruisers were first-to-last boats.
The Bobs had this same decal, with the gold lettering. I'll suggest it fits between Dick's ca.1908 and the ca.1921 samples based on the design detail. At least I'm confident it's real since it's on a canoe with a known history. I stopped by and had a nice chat with Dick on Tuesday (was up doing some paddling) and we discussed the way the boats were difficult to date based on features, changes often being based on what was at hand, and custom options.
There was no suggestion of it being an older boat from the owner... she saw it in a neighboring boathouse shortly after building their cottage in 1959, and purchased it. It looked old then, so it got a coat of paint and a side decal. The history before that is unknown. Her husband still has his unrestored `69 pickup in perfect shape, so taking care of things was not unusual. I was just going based on this decal on that nicely rounded deck (how this thread started). And I hadn't seen slot screws used everywhere before (even the deck screws).
So I guess I still don't know... not that it really matters. If Trudeau was born in 1919, and he used his as a kid... but then who knows how long that decal was used for, or if his boat was new when he got it.
Good to hear your opinions, it's great to have access to so much experience. Nice that these cruisers were first-to-last boats.
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Graham
Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes
You should have a look at the Bob's at the canoe museum, I'll bet it's pretty similar. Too bad there's no decal, I'd be interested in getting more info on its date range. It's usually the first question people ask... how old ... It'd be nice to have an answer instead of just shrugging
I've been doing some work with paint chips from this one, and have concluded that it has had 5 coats of paint. The current dark green, a bright green and then a green-grey identical to the Chestnut grey. And then a light grey and at the bottom of it all, that Chestnut green-grey again. As well, it appears a red stripe was added over the original paint coat for an inch under the gunwales and along both sides of the stem and keel. Not sure what that must have looked like. It went away with the sky grey paint coat though!
So the next paint coat, after some careful wet sanding, will be probably be back to Matchless Super Marine Chestnut grey (green).
I've been doing some work with paint chips from this one, and have concluded that it has had 5 coats of paint. The current dark green, a bright green and then a green-grey identical to the Chestnut grey. And then a light grey and at the bottom of it all, that Chestnut green-grey again. As well, it appears a red stripe was added over the original paint coat for an inch under the gunwales and along both sides of the stem and keel. Not sure what that must have looked like. It went away with the sky grey paint coat though!
So the next paint coat, after some careful wet sanding, will be probably be back to Matchless Super Marine Chestnut grey (green).
