E.M. White wood canvas canoe.

[kybishop]

Found an old E.M. White wood canvas canoe for sale locally. I have not seen it yet, seller sending pictures this weekend. Very nice gentleman on the phone, described the canoe as in good restore-able condition. Canvas has a couple holes. Wood is all there with some of it dry and some cracks. Seats are there and material on the seats. He is thinking it is a 14' canoe.

He has not had it out of the barn in about 10-15 years and has forgoten a lot about it. They are asking $250 for it. From what I have read on here in the FAQ, a wood canvas canoe in good restore-able condition can be worth about $200 to $500. This was however from a 2004 posting.

Anything I can look for specifically to tell which model White canoe this is and to help me decide on purchase price. What can a look for to help determine the year or vintage of this E.M. White? Sounds like a nice price to start with to me. I will try to get the serial number to figure out year and model of this canoe.

Thanks.

Redmon

 

[kybishop]

I might add, I have admired these canoes for many years. Reading books on canoe camping and the like. The river and creek bottoms here in Kentucky can be harsh on a canoe with all the limestone and sandstone. I have a fiberglass canoe that I believe is made up entirely of patches at this point and a royalex mohawk canoe. Always wanted to grab up one of these wood canvas but hard to find down in this area.

I would like to grab this one and possibly store it in the house for a bit until I get the time for a full restoration. Renovating two homes at the moment and the farm needs attention. But in time I can see a wood canvas restoration being quite enjoyable.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

There is some information available in the Knowledgebase:

http://forums.wcha.org/knowledgebase/Manufacturers:E+M+White

No records exist for the White Company, so finding a serial number may not help. If you post pictures of the canoe, others here may be able to give a shot at the date. Check the deck-styles as mentioned in the Knowledgebase, and if the rear seat is D-shaped, this may be an older White.

Not too many American builders made a 14 footer... it may be more like 16.

$250 sounds like a good price, if the canoe is as you mention. Sounds like you might get-by with some duct-tape over canvas-rips, if you needed to!-- until you have time to restore.

Kathy

 

[Greg Nolan]

I might add, I have admired these canoes for many years. Reading books on canoe camping and the like. The river and creek bottoms here in Kentucky can be harsh on a canoe with all the limestone and sandstone. I have a fiberglass canoe that I believe is made up entirely of patches at this point and a royalex mohawk canoe. Always wanted to grab up one of these wood canvas but hard to find down in this area.

If the canoe's condition is as you say, grabbing it sounds like the thing to do.

I, too, have a Mohawk royalex canoe that I used (and abused) for decades before getting my first w/c canoe. I still use the Mohawk from time to time, and it is great to have on hand to loan to guests who are novice paddlers. Wood/canvas canoes do require more gentle treatment -- no running them right into the rocky river bank when landing, or sliding them down the boat ramp or stony beach when setting out, or scraping them through rocky shallows, or leaving them upside down in the back yard forever -- things you can get away with in a royalex canoe. But the extra care is minimal, and the pay-off in the canoeing experience (never mind the appreciative comments from people unfamiliar with w/c canoes who will be admiring your restored canoe) is well worth the little effort involved.

Canoes can be stored for years in anticipation of restoration -- I have a couple in that status. They can also often be used as is -- a quick coat of paint, maybe some duct tape -- and a somewhat tired canoe can still be used. The canoe I usually paddle these days came with a couple of cracked ribs and planks, chipped gunwales, and old, cracked paint -- but it floats, the damage to the wood is not great, and a couple of coats of paint keeps the water out. Duct tape is part of my emergency kit, but I've not had to use it on the water yet. Restoration is still a year or two away, but I'm paddling in the meantime.

Good luck!

 

[kybishop]

Man, you guys are getting me excited about using it as is after some duct tape work and paint. I will know more tomorrow (Saturday the 2nd) when I get pictures. I will see about posting them up on the site here as well.

I just really enjoy vintage items and things old and retro. Automobiles, homes, buildings, tools and on and on. Thanks for all the input.

 

[mccloud]

KY, If you haven't done so already, read the info on Dan Miller's site at http://dragonflycanoe.com/wood-canoe-identification-guide/e-m-white/

I don't claim to be a White expert, but happen to be working on one at the moment. At some point White started to stamp numbers into the inside keel in the format 11 22 3456, where the first two numbers are the length, the second two are the year ( i.e. 48 means built in 1948), and then the serial number. If the canoe you are looking at has a nameplate, the older canoes say EM White, and those built after WW2 say White. At $250, if it were in pretty good shape, even if it needed recanvasing, and was in my backyard, I'd grab it. Tom McCloud

 

[kybishop]

KY, If you haven't done so already, read the info on Dan Miller's site at http://dragonflycanoe.com/wood-canoe-identification-guide/e-m-white/

I don't claim to be a White expert, but happen to be working on one at the moment. At some point White started to stamp numbers into the inside keel in the format 11 22 3456, where the first two numbers are the length, the second two are the year ( i.e. 48 means built in 1948), and then the serial number. If the canoe you are looking at has a nameplate, the older canoes say EM White, and those built after WW2 say White. At $250, if it were in pretty good shape, even if it needed recanvasing, and was in my backyard, I'd grab it. Tom McCloud

Good info, thanks.

I also got the below information from the gentleman that has the Northwoods Canoe Company. It agrees with what you said above as far as a serial number.

"The White hull design is one of the best river canoes ever made. The
original compay was sold in 1945 and went through a series of owners until
Old Town bought it in the 1970's and then they discontinued the line. The
pre 1945 canoes are much more valuable than the latter ones. After 1945
they started putting serial numbers on the foot of the stems, before that
there were no serial numbers. Its kind of hard to date the earlier canoes
because of the lack of the serial number but if you can send me pictures I
can give you a good guess.

The first grade canoe were built with much better material than the seconds.
The edges of the planking on the Whites were beveled to keep out the dirt
between he planks. That worked well for many years but as the planks dried
out the edges of the beveled planking would crack. That can make for some
tricky repairs. Also the tips of the decks and stems are subject to rot but
that is kind of normal for most older canoes.

They can be a lot of work but the Whites can be great hulls!"

 

[kybishop]

Pictures.

She is a bit rough, more so than I was thinking. Thwarts look homemade maybe? Seats or seat does not look original or the side mountings. Most of the ribs look okay but the gunnels need replacing.

She needs work for sure. What do you guys think?

 

[kybishop]

Pics.

Some more pictures.

 

[kybishop]

One more.

Double posted one photo and forgot this one.

 

[Larry Meyer]

I would say real rough. A broken inwale too. $100 tops or even a freebie. Tons of work.

 

[Dan Miller]

All canoes are restorable - this one needs a lot of work! Looks like it has been fiberglassed. Definitely needs inwales and outwales, seats, thwarts, at least one deck, and some unknown number of ribs.

The tag puts it as post-WW2 vintage.

Did you measure it? If it truly is 14' than it is possibly worth the asking price. 14' Whites are nice, and not all that common. If it is one of the more common 16-18' versions, than closer to the free end of the price range would be a better, given its issues.

 

[kybishop]

Left out the length. It is 16'-2".

I agree, it will be a lot of work. Couple other people are behind me to look at it. I think I will go with a $50 offer and let it go at that.

Thanks for all the help, I have enjoyed it. I will let you know what comes of this.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

I'm with the rest. If it's been 'glassed, and my self control was intact I'd shy away. Usually my self control in these matters is weak. But even if you paid $200 and spent $400 on materials and did a reasonably good job restoring it, you wold have a canoe worth around a grand, in a year or so. On the other hand there are probably alot of really good ones for sale here for a grand. If you paid to have it restored you would spend more than its value.

 

[Larry Meyer]

Dave states the case exactly. And 400 on materials would be real dirt cheap. There are canoes that go past the point of no return. This is one of them.

 

[SWEETWATER]

but if you get it for dirt cheap and dont mind doing the work and want a nice old maine classic canoe go for it, otherwise just keep looking they do show up more then you think. also there is the travel registry on this site you might be able to work out a delivery and get a canoe from up north somewhere.its your choice and good luck with your choice. you should also figure out what type of canoe you want , size , fishing and hunting, tripping or just paddling. there is a big difference in designs.

 

[Larry Meyer]

I look at it this way. You can spend on this one exactly what it would cost to bring back to life TWO canoes that are better candidates for restoration.

 

[kybishop]

I offered him $50 and he said he was going to hang onto it for now.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[NickBailey]

I have a boat that could be considered well past the point of no return. I bought it anyway, though, because as my first restoration it gave me a chance to do some of everything. I bought it to enjoy the many hours I spend working on it. It may not be a financial win, but when I'm done I'll have had a lot of hours of frenetic relaxation, I'll have a boat I can hopefully be proud of, and a lot of experience I didn't have before.

If you can get it cheap this may be a good candidate for that kind of a project.

 

[Steve Ambrose]

I've seen and been forced to restore worse! Old family boats that suffered through series of well-intentioned "repairs". If you end up with it take comfort in knowing that you can't screw it up. It's a good boat to learn with.