I recently found an old B.N. Morris canoe. I can't find any sign of a serial number in the usual places so I'm hoping one of the resident Morris experts can help me figure out it's model and vintage. Pics attached.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Dating a Morris with no Serial Number
- Thread starter esobel
- Start date
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Hello--
Nice find! Congratulations.
Your canoe appears to have three pairs of cant ribs, which would place it after 1905, and the heart-shaped deck suggests it was built before 1918. It would have had a serial number. Sometimes tack holes are hard to find. A serial number plate would have been located on the left inwale, above the first full rib (or there-abouts) or on the bow stem. Chapter 12 of "The Morris Canoe: Legacy of an American Family" gives a fairly detailed description of how to date a Morris. I'll attach a table from the book that may help you-- the book explains the terms in the table, so feel free to ask questions as the table may be difficult to understand without the related text.
Determining the model of a Morris can be difficult. Most are Model A. Model B is wider and has a wider short deck, and the difference between the two can be determined by measuring the angle of the deck-- B has a greater angle in its ends. Measuring with a protractor, Model A is 8 degrees and B is 12. Models C and D are uncommon. C is narrower and therefore more tender than A, and D is flat-bottomed with little tumblehome and was built for taking moose and Yeti from the bush.
Looks like a 16 footer. Let me know if you find tack holes under paint... that would help narrow the age.
Kathy
Nice find! Congratulations.
Your canoe appears to have three pairs of cant ribs, which would place it after 1905, and the heart-shaped deck suggests it was built before 1918. It would have had a serial number. Sometimes tack holes are hard to find. A serial number plate would have been located on the left inwale, above the first full rib (or there-abouts) or on the bow stem. Chapter 12 of "The Morris Canoe: Legacy of an American Family" gives a fairly detailed description of how to date a Morris. I'll attach a table from the book that may help you-- the book explains the terms in the table, so feel free to ask questions as the table may be difficult to understand without the related text.
Determining the model of a Morris can be difficult. Most are Model A. Model B is wider and has a wider short deck, and the difference between the two can be determined by measuring the angle of the deck-- B has a greater angle in its ends. Measuring with a protractor, Model A is 8 degrees and B is 12. Models C and D are uncommon. C is narrower and therefore more tender than A, and D is flat-bottomed with little tumblehome and was built for taking moose and Yeti from the bush.
Looks like a 16 footer. Let me know if you find tack holes under paint... that would help narrow the age.
Kathy
Attachments
Paul Scheuer
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Does it appear that the rail construction is not original ? All of the pictures and the old catalog show outwales tapered to the peaks. That may be why there is no builder's plate or evidence of one.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
If the inwales were replaced and the serial number plate was on the inwale, that would explain a lack of serial number. In un-authentic restorations, when the inwales are replaced, there are no pockets in the inwales (as this is a pain to do)... so it would be important to note if the ribs in this canoe fit into pockets. I do know of one Morris that was built without pocketed inwales (perhaps one of those "Friday night specials"), so we can't assume anything... but all details might add up to something that gives us the correct information.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Outwales on this and most Morris canoes are simply a strip of cedar, and don't affect the serial number.
MGC
Scrapmaker
Paul,
Has that canoe been glassed? The outside rails do look like they were replacements at some point. That often happens when a boat is fiber-glassed.
I would be surprised if the inside rails are replacements. The boat seems to be in pretty good shape. Rail replacement is usually a consequence of major damage or major rot and your boat seems to have avoided both. As Kathy notes, the tops of the ribs should be sitting in pockets in the inside rails.
It would be interesting if you could provide a better picture of the inside rails and also a side shot of the boat to let us have a peek at the profile.
WRT rails caps, maybe I learned something today. I have always thought that the caps and outside rails were spruce. I've was not aware of them being made from cedar.
Has that canoe been glassed? The outside rails do look like they were replacements at some point. That often happens when a boat is fiber-glassed.
I would be surprised if the inside rails are replacements. The boat seems to be in pretty good shape. Rail replacement is usually a consequence of major damage or major rot and your boat seems to have avoided both. As Kathy notes, the tops of the ribs should be sitting in pockets in the inside rails.
It would be interesting if you could provide a better picture of the inside rails and also a side shot of the boat to let us have a peek at the profile.
WRT rails caps, maybe I learned something today. I have always thought that the caps and outside rails were spruce. I've was not aware of them being made from cedar.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
I meant spruce for the rails, not cedar. Have cedar on my brain for several reasons, including what I hope to plant in the yard. Traditionally, Morris rails were spruce unless upgraded to mahogany.
More details
Kathy thanks for the chart and thanks to everyone for their replies. I will try to attach a few more pics. The forum limited me to 6.
To answer some previous questions.
1) Yes the ribs are slotted into the inwale
2) Yes the outwale and top rail appear to be missing (they are just strips of - something - possibly spruce or cedar - but they are tacked on in such an ugly fashion that either they are not original or they were nailed back on by an amateur when it was re-canvassed)
3) No sign of fiberglass. The canvas seems quite old and is potentially original (Several coats of different color paint - ugly red, fire truck red, nice pale green, and an rusty orangey layer that I think was the filler. (I may have missed another layer of forest green layer which is on the wood). The top rail strips and decks were painted silver (probably to make it look more like a Grumman in the 1950's or 60's). I just stripped the decks. The wood is beautiful underneath.
4) The stembands and keel are in good shape and seem original.
I've got lots of questions:
1) Should I bother saving the canvas or the ugly strips tacked on where the rails should be? How about the copper tacks used to attach the canvas?
2) Any suggestions for best way to strip all this paint off the interior wood work?
3) The three cant ribs seem to peg it to 1905-1909 Did Morris keep using 3 cant ribs after that period on the chart?
4) Suggestions for restoration resources to repair the broken ribs, planks and re-create the outwale/rails.
It's got some holes. I can take close-ups of those if anyone is interested.
Thanks.
Kathy thanks for the chart and thanks to everyone for their replies. I will try to attach a few more pics. The forum limited me to 6.
To answer some previous questions.
1) Yes the ribs are slotted into the inwale
2) Yes the outwale and top rail appear to be missing (they are just strips of - something - possibly spruce or cedar - but they are tacked on in such an ugly fashion that either they are not original or they were nailed back on by an amateur when it was re-canvassed)
3) No sign of fiberglass. The canvas seems quite old and is potentially original (Several coats of different color paint - ugly red, fire truck red, nice pale green, and an rusty orangey layer that I think was the filler. (I may have missed another layer of forest green layer which is on the wood). The top rail strips and decks were painted silver (probably to make it look more like a Grumman in the 1950's or 60's). I just stripped the decks. The wood is beautiful underneath.
4) The stembands and keel are in good shape and seem original.
I've got lots of questions:
1) Should I bother saving the canvas or the ugly strips tacked on where the rails should be? How about the copper tacks used to attach the canvas?
2) Any suggestions for best way to strip all this paint off the interior wood work?
3) The three cant ribs seem to peg it to 1905-1909 Did Morris keep using 3 cant ribs after that period on the chart?
4) Suggestions for restoration resources to repair the broken ribs, planks and re-create the outwale/rails.
It's got some holes. I can take close-ups of those if anyone is interested.
Thanks.
Attachments
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Morris used 3 pairs of cants from approximately 1905-1920. The only way to set your canoe into the 1905-09 time-frame is by finding two tackholes in the inwale (left side). If there are 4 tackholes in the stem, it would be c. 1909-1920... and if tack holes on the stem are arranged such that the shorter edge of the plate would have been parallel to the end of the stem, the canoe could be c. 1912-16 (or thereabouts).
You can post as many pictures as necessary here... just 6 at a time but feel free to post 6 and then another reply with 6. etc. I'm leaving in about 10 minutes for Lower MI and a paddling adventure with wonderful WCHA friends, and will be out of computer range until Sunday night. Looking forward to others' replies re this canoe. We all learn from discussions such as this!
Kathy
Kathy
You can post as many pictures as necessary here... just 6 at a time but feel free to post 6 and then another reply with 6. etc. I'm leaving in about 10 minutes for Lower MI and a paddling adventure with wonderful WCHA friends, and will be out of computer range until Sunday night. Looking forward to others' replies re this canoe. We all learn from discussions such as this!
Kathy
Kathy
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Your canoe sounds like it's largely original, but the outside rail caps are almost certainly replacements. Morris rail caps are much more delicate than this and they're nicely tapered toward the ends. It is possible that your canoe had true outwales (see attached Morris catalog page for rail construction styles). If your stembands and canvas are original, the stembands should be attached to the canoe with rivets which require care to remove without damaging the band or the stem. Putting them back on is often done with screws, but some people re-rivet them.
Restoration - There are many people who will be happy to help you with restoration. See our Builder's and Suppliers Directory for sources of materials and expertise, plus the good people of these forums can offer very helpful advice and maybe even in-person help. Where are you located? Members of a local chapter can be an excellent resource. Finally, use the search function on these forums - there is a wealth of information here, available at the click of a mouse. Your concerns have been discussed here many times, and many people have provided a wealth of valuable information. Enjoy!
Briefly, if your question was about keeping the old canvas on the canoe, it is surely way past its useful life. Remove it along with the replacement outside caps. Paint can be stripped, either by yourself or a professional stripper. If you do it yourself, the strongest possible stripper (usually methylene chloride-based strippers like Strypeeze work well) is advisable. There have been many discussions about stripping here on the forums. Paint can be a bear - it can be much harder to remove; milkpaint is its own special beast (!). If the paint is on bare wood, it can be difficult to get it all of it of the wood grain. However, if it's on top of varnish, it can be extremely easy.
Hoping this is helpful,
Michael
Restoration - There are many people who will be happy to help you with restoration. See our Builder's and Suppliers Directory for sources of materials and expertise, plus the good people of these forums can offer very helpful advice and maybe even in-person help. Where are you located? Members of a local chapter can be an excellent resource. Finally, use the search function on these forums - there is a wealth of information here, available at the click of a mouse. Your concerns have been discussed here many times, and many people have provided a wealth of valuable information. Enjoy!
Briefly, if your question was about keeping the old canvas on the canoe, it is surely way past its useful life. Remove it along with the replacement outside caps. Paint can be stripped, either by yourself or a professional stripper. If you do it yourself, the strongest possible stripper (usually methylene chloride-based strippers like Strypeeze work well) is advisable. There have been many discussions about stripping here on the forums. Paint can be a bear - it can be much harder to remove; milkpaint is its own special beast (!). If the paint is on bare wood, it can be difficult to get it all of it of the wood grain. However, if it's on top of varnish, it can be extremely easy.
Hoping this is helpful,
Michael
Michael Grace
Lifetime Member
Oops - sorry. Here you go! Check out the WCHA store - you can buy historic canoe catalogs on CD (and lots of other cool stuff). They are wonderful sources of historic and construction information.
Attachments
divedog
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Wonder how many Yeti took their last ride in a Morris!
