Rushton Indian Girl rear seat fit fits

Dave Wermuth

Who hid my paddle?
Not quite having fits over it but I am not sure how to proceed with getting the stern seat to fit. If I match the rear most rail to the inwale for attachment I find that the holes for the front of the seat are not nearly as wide as the inwale. As if the inwale has spread in the last hundred years, except it's a replacement inwale. I don't know if I should replace the front seat rail with a longer piece so it matches the inwale or squeeze the inwales in closer. The current shape looks ok. The quarter thwart is not stock. Neither is the center thwart. Or the inwales or decks for that matter. I'm inclined to remove the quarter thwart, squeeze the inwales to match the holes of the foreward rail on the seat and then resize the quarter thwart. But then again, I'm thinking maybe i should make the front rail of the seat longer. So here are a few photos and maybe I can get some ideas. This canoe is #3020. It is 16' long. My plan is to try removing the quarter thwart and squeezing it and then pondering it for awhile. And the stern seat's front rail has a notch cut on each end. Is that normal?
 

Attachments

  • seat fit.jpg
    seat fit.jpg
    64.1 KB · Views: 286
  • seat fit2.jpg
    seat fit2.jpg
    75.4 KB · Views: 291
  • seat fit3.jpg
    seat fit3.jpg
    76 KB · Views: 285
  • seat fit4.jpg
    seat fit4.jpg
    63.8 KB · Views: 282
I have never seen a canoe with the replacement thwarts shorter than the originals. The thwarts widened the canoe to, of course, make it more stable. With the different decks, inwales and thwarts, I would consider trimming the rear seat rail and moving the seat to wherever it fit best. After all, it's only an Indian Girl.
 
What Gil said...
I'd plug the old holes, and trim the rear rail to fit.. I've done it before.
I've also trimmed too much off, too! Yikes!!
Now I remove 1/8" or 1/4" at a time on the seat to find the fit. I "sneak up" on it.
Beats working with the thwarts IMHO.
 
Maybe I can help. I just finished making seats for the one I am working on.

First, I don't know if you have ever paddled that boat but if you haven't take my word for it, you don't want that stern seat to move any farther back than where it belongs unless you are a skinny and scrawny person. It's a tight fit.
Mine had the stern seat moved towards the deck and I was practically sitting on the rails to paddle it. Not good!

To get what are the right lines on mine and using the correct holes in the rails (someone had moved the seat and shortened it so I have 8 seat mounting holes in the stern end of the rails instead of 4) I am getting the correct lines with the seat rails at 13 and 18 inches.

I pulled mine back in with the thwarts and also had to pull the hull together in the stern to get the seat to fit correctly. The thwart alone was not keeping the boat together enough to properly fit the seat.

The thwarts are supposed be the same length and are just a touch over 26 inches.


Added as an after-thought.....I have an extra seat that is narrower than the one I am using. Embarrassingly I made the seat copying the one that I removed without first noticing that it was too short....it was only when I went back and started sanding the rails that I noticed the extra holes and figured out that I had been flimflammed once again. Yes, that does mean I also have an extra bow seat. What can I tell you, the woods needed to match. I could part with it if you are suitably skiny and scrawny and also enjoy riding the rails.....did I mention these are a tad tender?;)
 
Last edited:
I would make new seat frames. Assuming I intended to paddle it.

The curve of the rails looks nice the way it is, so I'd leave them as is.
If it will be wall hanger, I'd fit the seats as best I could, with the forward bolts going down at an angle to meet the seat frame. (I've seen other canoes where this was done.) BUT, bend the bolt so the load at the rail is vertical.

I 2ed Mike's comments about rear seats being too far back and no room for my butt,
if you're going to paddle it, don't do it. (story, on my newer Seliga, Joe mounted the rear seat back like this and I can't sit in the seat, have to use the rails and then I'm way too high. Joe did this because they were mounted before he decided it was mine and his main customer, Sommers, likes/ed the seats way back as the Guides liked to sit on the rails to see better. I haven't decided what if anything I will do about it.

To me, the basic shape of the canoe is most important and I would try to maintain it.


Dan
 
To answer one of Dave's first questions,

I have never seen the front rail of the back seat or either seat notched out like the one you have.

Looks like a re-fit.


Just say'n,

Paul
 
thanks Paul on the notch answer. I figured it for a after market job, but I wasn't sure. If only I could just shorten the back cross rail.
If i move the seat back to fit the front cross piece the back of the seat will be too far back and the back cross piece will be as narrow as the holes for the cane. Almost under the gunnels. that quarter thwart wasn't original. There wasn't much that was. Having said that, I thnk it is at the right width as the overall shape seems about right. A whole new seat frame is sounding better, but I was hoping to keep what I could. A longer front seat rail may be the answer. I think I'll pull the quarter thwart and check the measurements before and after to see how much change/stress there is. And then I'll compare to the front section for symetry Then I may pull in the aft rails a bit and see if there is much stress to that. then I'll most likely make a longer front seat rail for the stern seat. The bow seat lays on the cleats nicely with no forcing anything. I'd like the stern set to fit with no fuss too. In the end, I'll paddle this one around some but I think i'll end up selling both the 15' IG and this 16'er. And the center thwart was added by me. I don't care what Henry was thinking, every canoe needs a center thwart/yoke. Affter all, it's only an Indian Girl, right? =-]
 
Ok, if you don't want to cut a little off of the rear seat frame, add a little to the forward frame.
I've done that too... Make a little step joint to add an inch or so to the forward frame....thus preserving most of the original....
 
MGC do you know the distance from center on the 26" quarter thwart?

Varnish was still a bit tacky this AM so my measurements not 100% precise. I estimated center by splitting the number of ribs. The CL is located on a half rib. I counted 45 ribs including the cant ribs. I laid a yard stick across the rails at center and another across the thwart holes and measured between them.
From center to the bow thwart hole centers is 26 7/8th inches and from center to the stern thwart hole centers is 26 1/2 inches.

To be clear, 26 is the long dimension on the thwart. It is 25 1/8th on the short side.

Mike
 
Dave,

If you think these frames are not original, why save them, even if they fit.
Every old frame I've seen has been loose and falling apart, and if it's not original, it's not worth it to save it.

Dan

ps, I have saved original frames

I figured it for a after market job
 
DSC05196.jpgDave, if the seat you are using is the one I gave you, it's original. In fact, the entire canoe was original. As shown in the picture, there was no center thwart. The stern thwart is 24 3/4 inches long, and the distance between the holes is 24-3/8 inches.TDSC05212.jpghere is approximately 20 inches between the thwart hole and the forward hole for the seat. BTW ... this is a 17 foot canoe.
 
Something to think about on adding to the front seat rail. A harness joint should do it? Or whatever that joint is called that's like a long tongue and groove. Or maybe a splice and spline. The seat is a Rushton seat frame. But the notch I think was done afterwards. Fred, the seats you gave me are in the 15' canoe along with the quarter thwart. This 16' IG didn't have a quarter thwart in the front, I don't think. Not sure. The cleats and bow seat seems to take care of that. But I could be wrong. The Indian Girls in the Rushton catalogue show a center thwart in the canoes but mine did not seem to have it. . So, I guess it varied.
Dan, if it wasn't for the trapezoid shape I'd consider a whole new frame. The measurements are very helpful to me. Thanks everyone.
 
The Indian Girls in the Rushton catalogue show a center thwart in the canoes but mine did not seem to have it. . So, I guess it varied.
Dan, if it wasn't for the trapezoid shape I'd consider a whole new frame. The measurements are very helpful to me. Thanks everyone.

Neither of mine have a center thwart and although it bugs me not having one, I won't add them. There are no holes in the rails for a center thwart (on mine) and I am trying to keep these boats quasi original.

The trapezoid seat is not very hard to make. You should be able to throw one together in a few hours.
 
I agree with MGC - seats are the easiest things to make for a canoe. Especially the ones I see in your pics as the wood is essentially rectangular in profile. Plus new seats would have new dowel joints so if done properly they'll last longer than regluing the ones you have now. You can always mud them up to get them old dirty looking if you want to.

Consider this: I glue a thin (about 3/16" to 1/8") strip of wood on the underside of the seat spacer that covers the underside of the dowel joint area. This re-enforces the dowel joints - I bet they'll never break. For a seat with a rectangular caned area the strip would measure about 1/2" less than the total width of the seat (you'd have to adjust as your caned area has angled sides) and 1/4" less wide than the seat spacer you're gluing to (you'd glue it flush to the inner side of the spacer. You'd drill the caning holes through them. They typically aren't visible from above.
 
Thanks everyone for the good data. I've measured and scrutinized and i really think the front seat rail with the notches was a replacement now. So the simple best fix is to make a new rail. The rest of the frame i think is an original. My canoe measures 32 3/8" wide, so that's close to the factory 32 1/2" and everything else looks fair. The ability to have a consult like this is such an advantage.
 
I made a new front rail. It turns out that the one that was there was likely not original. And it had been cut down to 16 1/2" Instead of 18. So now I'm back on track. More or less.
 
Back
Top