rib bending- dry or soak?

[bob goeckel]

when i started canoe building i would soak my ribs as is commonly done before steaming. usually 2-4 would break. the last few canoes, i bent the ribs dry and only occasionally would i lose one. on the current build i again soaked the ribs for about 4 days and lost 5 ribs. has anyone else experienced this? seems like the dry method works better and saves time and effort.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

Hi Bob

Hope you and Brenda are well. I'm taking a pen turning class next month and need to chat with you about lathes and such

I just bent 30 ribs onto waterfall canoe. I soaked them overnight in the bathtub. I boiled them before bending. working alone I kept three ribs in the tank as I went. Take one out, put one in. I can kinda tell if they are cooked just right. I did not break a rib. I wonder if you have been boiling too long? I have seen them break when they were boiled too long. I have to guess that each rib was in the soup for about ten minutes or less.

The ribs are 5/16" thick white cedar. There may have been a mixture of kiln and air dried but I doubt that makes a dif after a soak in the tub.

Also the way I bend them may have something to do with it. I stretch as I bend. I get it to where there is good resistance and wait for the cells in the wood to relax. I can feel it relax.

 

[chris pearson]

what about the pros?

Ask the pro builders. I dont think McGreivey worrys about pre soaking or boiling at all. How about Rollin, pipe up!!!! Steam at the right temp and time in, and youll break very few.

Chris

 

[bob goeckel]

i do stretch as i go just wondered about others experience. i usually steam them about 10-15 min. 3-5 at a time. we are doing good dave, the offer to get together still stands. call brenda with any questions about lathe work, i know she hasn't done any pens just pots and bowls and lamps but she shure knows what she's doing. planking the 4th bob's right now.

 

[chris pearson]

yup

Yup, pull as you go, that works for me!

 

[Douglas Ingram]

I like to soak my ribs first. It doesn't take long, even 5 minutes will help. 30 works well. Even just laying the ribs on the floor and pouring water over them is a help. It adds just that extra bit of moisture.

That being said, some pieces (fortunately most of them!) of cedar just want to bend, and some others don't.

 

[ken mueller]

Hope you and Brenda are well. I'm taking a pen turning class next month and need to chat with you about lathes and such

I just bent 30 ribs onto waterfall canoe. I soaked them overnight in the bathtub. I boiled them before bending. working alone I kept three ribs in the tank as I went. Take one out, put one in. I can kinda tell if they are cooked just right. I did not break a rib. I wonder if you have been boiling too long? I have seen them break when they were boiled too long. I have to guess that each rib was in the soup for about ten minutes or less.

The ribs are 5/16" thick white cedar. There may have been a mixture of kiln and air dried but I doubt that makes a dif after a soak in the tub.

Also the way I bend them may have something to do with it. I stretch as I bend. I get it to where there is good resistance and wait for the cells in the wood to relax. I can feel it relax.

Dave, I would be interested to see any pictures you may have of your boiling set up. Thinking of making one. Thanks!

 

[Dave Wermuth]

ok

The flat peices of concrete under the tank serve to send the heat lengthwise instead of leaking out the side. The stainless steel tank cost me $25.00 from the Vocational/Technical center that the school runs. The tank is 8" wide, 6" high and 6 ft long. I boil starting with ten gallons of water in it. It was scrap from a milk tank maker's operation. Bob uses a hot water heater tank. For steaming, I have a metal gas can, metal flex pipe, like for an exhaust of a car fits over the opening (2" ?) and then a radiator hose and then the flexible blue sewer hose that is used for campers. I use the blue hose for gunwhales. I fasten the rail in the middle and then steam it in place. The blue hose collapses, accordian style as I go toward the end. It is the best system I've used. Pvc will work but this is way better. I am convinced that if you wanted to make one rib you could soak it overnight and pour a teakettle of boiling water over it and it would bend just fine. Presoaking isn't neccessary at all but probably does give me a small extra margin of safety.

 

[bob goeckel]

. Bob uses a hot water heater tank.

i have actually done away with the boiling tank completely. it just seems easier to set up steam for me.

the 4th bob's is off the form! i have some left overs so am going to pull a canoe shelf off the form then put er away til next winter.

 

[dumbquestionsguy]

I know this subject has been talked to death, most likely, but I just busted a the 2 ribs I attempted to steam yesterday, so it's on my mind. Apologies for repeat info. In fact, I'll just apologize before every single one of my posts. Granted for cost/practice I'm using red cedar, which might be part of it, but I soaked for a few days, steamed (with an old clothing steamer into a big pvc pipe) for 10-15 minutes, and they both let go. How do I say this... um... CRAP! I've read a lot about steaming, and maybe it's just that it's red cedar, but it was not working. I've actually bent red cedar on another boat (with a friend) more effectively with boiling, so maybe that's the way I've got to go - just had the steamer on hand, thought it might work out...

Do you really go slowly bending then (i.e. stretching)? Seems like they cool down quick if you take too much time...

Incidentally, happy finally warm day... Loving it...

 

[chris pearson]

Use white cedar. I have never broken a white cedar rib after steaming for 30 minutes or so. Dont vary from what works, the pros do this, and for good reason, it works. If it aint broke, dont fix it. No pun intended.

 

[Dan Miller]

DQG,

There is a good reason that canoe factories and current builders use white cedar for ribs and either white or red cedar for planking.

Then, the next thing to do is put a thermometer in your steam box. Don't put your ribs in until it is at least 180 degrees F, and preferably over 200 degrees. Just because steam is coming out of the box doesn't mean it is hot enough.

And yes, boiling is a perfectly acceptable substitute for steaming, so if that works for you, do it.

 

[dumbquestionsguy]

I know white cedar is the way to go. Just harder to come by for me - I've looked all over my area - it's difficult to find. I know little local sawmills might be the guys to ask.

 

[Dave Wermuth]

going slowly is a relative term.

it takes only a few seconds. As I bend I can feel it get a bit stiffer and if I go too fast it'll break but if I let it stay under pressure for a few seconds it relaxes and I go some more. the bending process takes maybe a minute. so heat loss isn't a factor. I think the red cedar is more brittle. Use the white cedar ten muinutes at 212 degrees should do the job. Up to 30 minutes should be fine. You'll get a feel for it. Sometimes they are just like a wet noodle.

Try again. be mindful of the grain of the wood. Everyone you break will teach you something. there really is a discernable breaking point, beyond which they go splat.

 

[dumbquestionsguy]

I did actually try flat sawn pieces first, assuming their relatively less-dense grain structure would resist bending less, but to no avail. I also waited a while to try and let the steam/temp build, but I don't have a thermometer, so I'm just guessing... I'd hate for this to be all the farther I get - building that form was a long process...

It takes a full minute of actual bending? I may have been going too fast - I probably bent for maybe half that.

Again, apologies for the rudimentary discussion - and than you yet again for dispensing wisdom without complaint. This is really useful to those of us with less experience who are looking to gain some traction in this incredibly interesting process.

 

[Andy Hutyera]

Dumb Question Guy:

The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask!