Plastic Only Containers??

[Mud Bug]

In reading Norm Hein's thread, "Stopover in Wisconsin," I went to the Sylvania Wilderness area's website. In their restrictions, rules or whatever you wanna call them, they say people are not allowed to bring glass, foam or metal food or beverage containers into the preserve:

"Metal or glass food or beverage containers, including deposit bottles, cans and foam containers may not be taken into the wilderness."

On their video they show people actually emptying canned food into a plastic container. (Not exactly sure how that will keep for the folks.) Is this the trend these days for government parks and such? Is plastic considered better for the environment now than metal? I understand the reasoning behind glass, obviously (and I don't bring it on a river), but I don't understand the pro-plastic. I thought plastic water bottles were anti-environment. I find it hard to believe they're better than metal, but apparently that's what Michigan, at least, is promoting. What about metal canteens? Are they not, um, "environmentally friendly" anymore?

Is this the new version of being good to the environment? And do people follow this example on rivers and wilderness in general?

I was raised to "smash and bury what will decay (paper, food cans, human waste, fish guts, etc.) and pack out what won't; leave nothing visible behind." My dad carried a folding shovel just for that. Is that no longer acceptable?

I do not mean this to be a political discussion. I just wanna know how society is viewing this topic these days. Don't want any ugly glares from fellow campers.

 

[MGC]

Not familiar with the specifics of that particular parks requirements but it is generally not considered to be appropriate to dig and bury anything.
Even the practice of troweling tiny cat-holes for human waste is considered to be a fallback to packing it out if a latrine is not available.

 

[Mud Bug]

Thanks. I get that about burying. Haven't done it in years on any public ground. I suppose that was the way to do things in the 50's and 60's though, when my dad was young and camping a lot. I still do it on our own property though. I even poke used matches down in the ground so they're not visible. The plastic thing is what I'm mostly wondering about. Just ordered a 1770's period tin canteen, and then I read that from the park's site and got to wondering if my water would be left behind if I go to a park.

 

[Dave Osborn]

Go to the Sylvania Facebook page and pose your question.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

My guess is that the reg's were written before plastic got popular.

In the BW (and I assume Q also) they were written to reduce "garbage" left at camp sites.
Back in the "day" cans were burned, crushed and sunk in the lakes.
They were also thrown in the woods near camp sites. Some sites still have can piles near them.
The FS created the reg's stop this.
Ideally the only hard plastic and metal containers are for non-food items, and (are assumed) to be packed out.
With something in the range of 150,000 people using the BW each year, these rules are needed,
even then, with all the new comers going in these days, and even with the mandatory video, much gets through.

As a current example, my nephew just got back from a Q trip, and some pics were posted, including one of a pot on the fire, with a CAN of Dinky Moore stew sitting next to it.

Now soft plastic is a whole 'nother story, it should all be packed out but I'd guess much gets burned.

 

[Mud Bug]

Dave, that's a good idea 'bout their Facebook page. But, um, Dan, I don't understand your lingo. What is BW, FS and Q? Are those standing in for words? What might those words be? Sorry to be so out of it here. Don't mean to annoy you.

Since things do get left behind by accident, and always will, it seems to me it'd be better if those things were made of metal that'll break down in time, rather than plastic that won't. But I don't make decisions for other people.

My great-grandfather, back in the 1890's or so, threw all his old iron in the Crick that crosses the farm. That was the thing to do, for some reason. Seems positively nuts. Sheesh. I've dug so much old iron out of that spot. I even salvaged some decent wrought iron that I forged into a damascus blade.

 

[Dave Osborn]

Dan is describing other wilderness camping areas similar to Sylvania.
BW Boundary Waters
Q. Quetico
FS. Forest Service

 

[Mud Bug]

Oh. Never woulda gotten than. Thank you.

 

[Glenn MacGrady]

"Metal or glass food or beverage containers, including deposit bottles, cans and foam containers may not be taken into the wilderness."

Is plastic considered better for the environment now than metal?

I'm pretty sure the target of that restriction is factory, commercial or store packaging that would be considered garbage or trash after the contents have been eaten or drunk. They don't want any of these kinds of one-use factory or store packages to be left in, on or under campsite grounds as trash, but are afraid people will do so unless they ban them.

It's not that plastic is "better" than metal or vice versa, if left there; it's that they don't want any factory packaging at all left there. So, they restrict users from bringing in factory/commercial/store packages made of metal, glass and foam plastic to obviate a trash problem.

They want all food and beverages to be re-packaged in re-usable containers of the kind that wilderness trippers commonly use over and over again—containers that campers will naturally take back home to use on future trips. There are all sorts of re-usable plastic, wooden and fabric containers, barrels, bins, wannigans, boxes and canteens that wilderness trippers use to pack their kitchen and foodstuffs, and which they take back home to re-use on each trip: kitchen camping gear. That's the kind of food and beverage packaging that this restriction is aimed at encouraging.

They don't ban factory paper packaging, presumably because that can be burned. However, if campfires are not allowed or a burn ban is in place, you will have to pack out paper packaging or not bring that in the first place either.

 

[Mud Bug]

Makes sense in a partial-picture sort of way. The flip to that is that people are gonna leave things behind, accidentally or not. If people bring plastic, plastic will be left behind; if people bring metal, metal will be left behind. Which is better for the woods? But it sounds like the overall goal is to ban single-use containers of any kind but paper. That makes sense. Since you can't have a perfect situation, that just might be the best road to take for the volume of people they have. One solution might be to inspect every bag going in, have a "can count" and then do it again going out, and fine anyone for any missing pieces. Ha ha! There'd be lines like an airport, and most of us would be so annoyed we wouldn't want to go.

But I'm not arguing what should be done. It's not my business. Just wanted to know the mentality to try and catch on to the current environmentally-conscious perspective. A dozen years ago we were at an art event in the middle of Grand Rapids Michigan, and I was surprised when the host didn't want anyone to use water bottles because they were, as they put it, "more environmentally friendly than that." I don't drink bottled water (ick) so it'd never crossed my mind just how bad those little plastic bottles are. This is sort of like that.

Still curious how those poor campers in the video fared after eating de-canned food after it jostled around in their warm pack for a few days.

 

[Dan Lindberg]

I haven't seen that video but I'd guess it was either staged for the video or raw rookies,
at least here (MN, BW/Q) dried and freeze dried food has been used for many years.
Packs are already too heavy to be carrying water (canned food).
With this said, there are different ideas about portages and number of trips one takes, usually driven by the amount of stuff one takes.
Folks who are "travelers" try to single trip portages, folks who "basecamp" often take 3 or 4 trips on portages.
Single trippers will have gear closer to backpackers, where base campers closer to car camping gear.

Being a cheap character, I just buy the dried food at grocery store and repack it to zip lock bags. (air takes up too much room, the bags are reused from trip to trip)

Still curious how those poor campers in the video fared after eating de-canned food after it jostled around in their warm pack for a few days.

 

[Mud Bug]

Yeah, I'm jealous. Doesn't makes sense to carry wet food with all that good clean water you have all around you. That's not the case down here in southern Michigan where the roads and parking lots are thick with cars puking oil into the washes, and the trees have been uprooted and replaced with corn and soybeans fed with chemicals that sweep into the streams through the tiles farmers burry for that purpose. Down here in people land it makes more sense to carry wet food than dry food and then carry water separately. The heaviest thing on the four-day trips my dad and I used to take down the Saint Joe was a big three gallon water jug. Even then we'd have to stop at a house and ask for water. We even did our dishes with carried water when we went down that river.

But anyway, we weren't talking about people land. I bet you're right that that video was staged. Maybe it's an inside joke from the park rangers on the annoying tourists! Ha!