Old Town pre-WWII question: To bung or not to bung over gunwale screws, that is the question!

[ColinRowntree]

This is an interesting topic that I accidentally stumbled into when posting a thread about my 1936 Old Town on the Fans of the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association Facebook group and someone noticed I had bunged over the outside of the White Ash gunwale fasteners and said original bungs were not used by Old Town.

In the 30 years I have worked in New England wooden boat yards, almost all of the boats I worked on had bungs over all fasteners on brightwork, but that's for everything from Beetle Cats, to Wianno Seniors all the way up through Alden Schooners - this is my first Old Town Canoe restoration so I'm all ears for any onfo on pre-WWII canoes in general, and Old Town specifically (many thanks to Benson Gray for getting me the genealogy on this boat).

This now begs the question of why Old Town (and other canoe makers, pre 1940) chose not to use bungs when it was standard practice for all other wooden boats of the period.
Anyone have any more info on this arcane little topic? My interest is mow peaked!


Just for fun I asked CHATGPT to take a crack at it (look at me being all modern and trendy! LOL) and it was pretty non-committal...

Query:
Do pre-WWII old town canoes have bungs over the screws in the gunwales?

ChatGPT:
Old Town Canoe Company, founded in 1898, has a long history of producing canoes, and their designs and construction techniques have evolved over time.
Pre-World War II Old Town canoes might have had bungs over the screws in the gunwales, but it's not a universal feature across all models. The presence of bungs would depend on the specific model and the manufacturing techniques used during that era.
Some older canoes might have utilized bungs to cover screws for aesthetic reasons or to provide some protection against water ingress into the screw holes. However, not all models would have had this feature, and it's possible that different models or production runs varied in terms of their construction details.

Anyone want to take a crack at this one?


Here's where I'm at now with this old girl. All the gray paint stripped off (EEEK! Why do people paint over varnish again?) and a bit of carpentry in process before the eternal sanding begins.
You can see the bungs here prior to them being nipped off flush with a chisel prior to fairing them down and sanding.

 

[Benson Gray]

Old Town canoes had bungs on the inside gunwales until the early 1920s when the diamond headed bolts were introduced. The outside gunwales never had bungs added at the factory as far as I know. I suspect that there were two reasons for this. One, canoes are primarily used on fresh water so corrosion was less of a concern. Two, canvas typically lasts about twenty years in normal use so recanvassing is a common maintenance task. Bungs in the outside qunwales would make this task considerably more difficult. Let me know if this doesn't answer your question,

Benson

 

[Gil Cramer]

It's your canoe. Bung away. i have never seen an outwale bunged. Seat bolts were bunged until approx.(I refuse to use circa) 1921.

 

[ColinRowntree]

Old Town canoes had bungs on the inside gunwales until the early 1920s when the diamond headed bolts were introduced. The outside gunwales never had bungs added at the factory as far as I know. I suspect that there were two reasons for this. One, canoes are primarily used on fresh water so corrosion was less of a concern. Two, canvas typically lasts about twenty years in normal use so recanvassing is a common maintenance task. Bungs in the outside qunwales would make this task considerably more difficult. Let me know if this doesn't answer your question,

Benson

And that's the answer I was looking for, Benson.
And Bonus: You are far better at this than ChatGPT Artificial Intelligence!
Thanks so much. Your encyclopedic knowledge is a total Godsend to the wooden boat community

 

[MGC]

My 1906 Double Gunwale OT had bunged outside rails. Between the ends of the decks, very other screw was bunged.
The seat screws were also bunged. I was the second owner of that canoe.
Why not bung? They tend to be a PITA for repairs. More often than not you end up damaging them when they are later removed.
That said, they really do look sharp.

 

[ColinRowntree]

It's your canoe. Bung away. i have never seen an outwale bunged. Seat bolts were bunged until approx.(I refuse to use circa) 1921.

Great reply. And if anyone asks why there are bungs on my gunwales at wooden boat gatherings this summer, I think I'll just look confused and say "Ooops. I thought this was a Cosby Beetle Cat with no sailing rig!"

 

[ColinRowntree]

My 1906 Double Gunwale OT had bunged outside rails. Between the ends of the decks, very other screw was bunged.
The seat screws were also bunged. I was the second owner of that canoe.
Why not bung? They tend to be a PITA for repairs. More often that not you end up damaging them when they are later removed.
That said, they really do look sharp.

View attachment 55365View attachment 55366

Great looking OT, MGC.
That now leads to another question: What's the OT protocol for stem bands that wrap around over the top of the deck a few inches like on yours? I've seen both. Curious if that varied from year to year or model to model (or both).

Paging Benson Gray! Arcane question of the moment on Aisle 2!

 

[Benson Gray]

What's the OT protocol for stem bands that wrap around over the top of the deck a few inches like on yours?

The stem bands on most Old Town canoes wrap around the top of the deck as shown on MGC's canoe. The first link below shows another similar example. The exceptions are early Old Town canoes with closed gunwales where the rails run past the stems. See the second link below for an example of this. Your canoe from 1936 with open gunwales would have had the stem band wrap over the top of the deck. However, 'it is your canoe' as Gil said so do what you like. Let me know if you want more examples.

Benson

An Old Town Charles River model in AA grade with double mahogany gunwales from 1907

The pictures below show an Old Town Charles River model in AA grade with double mahogany gunwales from 1907 and fancy turned drops on the seats. It appears to have been modified after it left the factory for a canopy as shown by the four metal mounting points in the gunwales. Benson

forums.wcha.org

A canoe from the Indian Old Town Canoe Company

The pictures here show an Indian Old Town canoe with serial number 201. There are no build records that go back this far but it is probably circa 1901 when this company started advertising. This was the first form of the organization that eventually became the Old Town Canoe Company on January...

forums.wcha.org

 

[MGC]

Those were original stem bands on the DG. That wrap over the deck is how they were doing it in 06. It may have changed along the way. I am attaching another image of a different canoe that I once owned. It was restored by Chris Pearson. Chris is known for obsessive detail. My recollection is that this canoe had good original stem bands on it so I am presuming this image represents what OT was doing in the 20's. Benson will surely know. From my perspective, it should wrap over the deck in order to provide a bit of protection. Logically the shortest it can be is beyond the tip of the deck plus far enough to bury a couple screws.

 

[Worth Gretter]

AI is only as good as the material it is trained on.
I'm sure there is a paucity of info on the internet regarding bunged gunwales on pre-WWII Old Towns, so AI had nothing to work with.
Until this thread, that is!