Old Town #_4_30

[ChattahoocheeJim]

I wrote in last year about this canoe trying to find the build record. The numbers are hard to read. One person suggested I rub over the numbers with pencil and paper. I works a little. I think the first digit is a 6 or an 8. The middle digit is almost impossible to decipher, but I'm guessing a 5 or a 7 (something with a flat top). Lots to go on here.
The canoe is a sailing canoe, it has mahogany gunwales, decks and seats. One thwart is missing, the other is ash or oak. It has half ribs and a rub rail. This was really spiffy once.
Attached are a few photos.
Thank you for your patience. It just makes me crazy not to know more about this canoe.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Hi Jim--

I'll be looking some more... here's what I've found so far:

64530 is an 18' CS grade Charles River with open spruce gunwales, birch decks/thwarts/seat frames and a keel. No half ribs. Shipped May 23, 1922.

64730 is a 16' AA grade Charles River with open mahogany gunwales and (surprise) mahogany decks/thwarts/seat frames. No half ribs. Shipped June 21, 1921 to Vilas Co., WI.

84530 is a 15 foot CS grade fifty pounder with open spruce gunwales and birch decks/thwarts/seat frames and a keel... no half ribs (but yours is not a 50# model anyway)... shipped to Philly on 4-6-25.

84730 is a 17 foot AA grade Otca with open mahogany gunwales and mahogany d/t/s, a keel and outside stems--- no half-ribs--- shipped to Macy's in NYC 6/10/26.

When I looked at the profile of your canoe I thought "Charles River" more than anything else, but it could be an HW--- the HW has pretty lines too, and is more likely to be fitted as a sailor. But as we well know, sail rigging is frequently an after-thought, and isn't necessarily on the build record. I can't recall the length of your canoe the other time you mentioned it. Length is the least-likely thing to change. Half-ribs are unlikely to be added later, although we have a canoe with very nice half-ribs that were added by someone with talent for working with wood, so who knows? I'm zeroing-in on half-ribs and canoes that are either a CR or HW, because that's the deck-style you have. Not sure whether yours would have originally been an AA or CS grade, with the wood species differences you have... but am thinking AA. Am also thinking "early" and will check out 34530 and 34730.

Will be baaaaack!

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Still no cigar...

34530 is a 16' CS grade HW

34830 is a 16' CS grade Livery model

34230 is a 16' CS grade CR

34330 is a 17' CS grade CR

34930 is an 18 foot CS grade HW-- closed gunwales, ash d/t/s

all the above canoes were shipped in 1915. I found the old post and see that your canoe is 18 feet, with outside stems and half ribs... so am looking to find that, plus looking at pre-1920-21 (due to plugs rather than diamond-head bolts)... also looking for open mahogany gunwales.

So-- (just speculating here) your canoe appears to be an 18 foot AA grade CR (or Ideal) or HW with open mahogany gunwales, half-ribs, outside stems, and rub-rails, possibly pre-1920. Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

Kathryn,
Your memory is good.
I was just taking an inventory today to see how much work it needed. It looks like a branch fell on the canoe at the stern seat. All gunwales broken there, seat smashed and three ribs broken at the tops. Pretty violent but localized damage.
It might be assumed that the rub rail is original. It's a lot of trouble to go through in a renovation. That might imply a two-color paint job. That also might be something to look for.
Jim

 

[Kathryn Klos]

One reason I'm leaning toward Charles River is the rub-rail and the outside stems... it does suggest a two-tone paint job and more of a "courting" look... plus the canoe has nice high ends. I'm leaning toward the Ideal model, which is an AA grade Charles River, with open gunwales and half-ribs. The outside stems and rub rails make it even fancier... and the said rig, whether factory or added later... really dresses it out.

I'll attach the details on the Ideal and the HW models, from the 1919 catalog, found on the Old Town Catalog CD edited by Benson Gray and Dan Miller and available at www.dragonflycanoe.com or in the WCHA store.

Bear in mind that things may be a bit off, when measuring canoes to compare with catalog measurements. These models are fairly close when it comes to measurement.

Somebody else here may have an opinion as to what you have-- besides "a nice canoe that found a deserving home".

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

I can't thank you enough for your interest in this canoe. Maybe, more generically, in "such canoes". I'm still amazed at the countersunk and plugged bolts. Pretty fancy for that time - assuming around 1920. That's why I'm so curious about it.
This will force me to buy the CD with the build records. Sheesh. Then I'll be reading the whole thing, from 1915 to '25.
As a kind of social history approach, it seems that someone was trying to impress.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Checked out the fives--- all these canoes are 1919, and none appears to fit the bill-- none have half-ribs:

54030-- 17' CS CR
54130-- 17' CS Otca
54230-- 16' CS Otca
54330-- 17' AA Otca
54430-- 16' CS Otca
54530-- 18' CS HW
54630-- 17' AA HW
54730-- 18' CS Otca
54830-- 18' CS Otca
54930-- 18' AA HW, 30" decks, sponsons with mahog panels, mast seat and step, no half-ribs

That last canoe is pretty interesting---

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

Astounding. I think you figured it out. I looked at the rubbings again. The numbers could correspond to the last one. The first number on the stern rubbing could definitely be a five and the third number on the bow looks like it could be a nine.
Hmmm. Even more interesting now. The sponsons were removed and a rub rail put in where the screw holes were perhaps?
Did that number mention the color? Except for a few minor details it looks like a match.
I can't thank you enough.
I wonder what happened to the decks? Heck it's only been 90 years.
Now I'm thinking I should look a little more, perhaps dust the numbers with chalk. And if it still look right restore it to original condition perhaps, but perhaps without sponsons.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

One of the details that didn't match are the half-ribs. We have a canoe which has the half-ribs added on by a woodworker... and even though they are nicely-made, it's fairly easy to tell that they were an add-on.

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

The half ribs on this canoe are not things of beauty. Kind of feathery on the ends. A little thin in width. They don't convince me they are original.
The canoe had to be recanvased at some point, and that would have been a logical time to add them.
I'll upload a picture of the half ribs. I think I have one. Just take a minute.

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

The half ribs are not well fabricated, and they're not placed accurately as you can see from the photo. It doesn't look like factory work to me. Looks more like a retrofit to me. What are your thoughts?

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

Attached is another photo of bow seat location. Does it look like it's placed too far back for that short deck? Maybe it did have a longer deck.
I have another 18 foot sailing canoe. I'll pull it out tomorrow and compare.

 

[Michael Grace]

Jim,

Your canoe is typical of a AA-grade Old Town from the teens era. It is very nice, and these are somewhat rare, but the features are typica of a AA-grade short-decked OT fromthat timeframel. The countersunk and bunged seat bolts are normal- a very nice feature of course. You'll also notice that your thwarts are shaped differently from those on your other Old Towns. They are thinner, and simpler in a sense, but they are a really pretty style (maybe it's just because they are unusual).

Your half ribs look typical as well. There is one that's clearly out of place laterally in the pic you posted, but otherwise they look like standard OT half ribs.

Your decks are also typical for a short-decked Old Town. In particular the cutout is the standard shape for an OT of this era. Compare this to other OTs in your collection and you csn see how the intricacy of this deck cutout was gradually lost over the years. Yours certainly isn't the last one from Kathy's last list- the one with long decks- or there would be very clear signs of those long decks.

Your sailing setup also looks normal. The simpler form of the mast step would be typical of that era. The only thing that is odd is the lack of a brass rng in the mast seat. I believe it should have had one, but I don't see any screw holes.

Finally, if this were originally a sponson canoe, that would be obvious. The sponsons were attached with two screws (one about 3" above the other) at every other rib. Removing the sponsons would have eft this double row of screw holes that wouldn't be masked by screws holding a single rub rail in place. In addition, the sponsons would le in the position between the gunwales and the level of your rub rails.

All in all, your canoe looks very original. It appears to be a teens-era AA-grade short-decked canoe such as an HW or CR with half ribs, rub rails, and possibly a sailing rig. Bear in mind that the limited number of digits you're sure about means that this is one of 90 canoes. Keep poking around that serial number area. You might try adding a little varnish to the cleaned stem- this can sometimes make the serial number easier to read.

Now, on a completely different note, did you get my last email about the spruce?

Michael

 

[ChattahoocheeJim]

Michael, I was hoping we had found the number. I'll work on it a little more and see how it cleans up.
Yes, I did get you message. Great. I'll send you half the cost this week.
I'm going up to Maryland/DC next week and will be back around the 20th. Does that fit with your trip to GA? I'll drive to where you are, because by the time you're in Georgia, you've already driven 8 hours or so. Let me know your plans.