Shellac for canoe bottoms?

Easternrivers

Traditionalist
I've seen some pics of canoe bottoms covered in shellac. It's not something commonly done up here in NB I think.

Question I have is...I thought shellac did not do well when it got wet...It would turn milky...So is this a problem or considered a part of the normal wear-tear on used canoes....and just refinished at end of season?

Another question I thought of was how durable is shellac compared to paint?
OR is that also a non-issue???
 
Shellac your bottom

The shellac does require annual touch up.
I give it a quick sand and put another coat on. It takes about an hour to do.
It always looks good after you touch it up and it's easy to maintain.
The shellac really slides well off of obstructions. I don't think it get's real "milky" looking but it does get thin and show the filler if you use it a lot.
I'm sold on it for our "working" canoes.
 
+1 on what MGC said. As to shellac durability, I have found it to be excellent ,as good as paint, and the scratches don't show as readily. Bottom can be made to look spiffy new in just an hour or less with NO SANDING required. The new alcohol based shellac just melts into the old, forming an unblemished surface. You can use off the shelf Zinnsser Amber shellac or you can buy shellac flakes and mix your own in the smaller quantity needed for a freshen up or annual re-do so that the now opened remainder of the quart/litre does not get bad sitting on the shelf for a year.

Canoe looks real sharp with a white or black water line available at marine supply stores and super easy to apply. Self sticky and durable. Or use no tape. I have seen them both ways and both look good.
 
Good to hear these comments....I think this would look nice on my 1920's Bob's once I get 'er done this summer.
Thanks.
 
I picked up 2 American Traders that both have shellac bottoms. One is a tandem that has clearly seen a lot of use and it's held up really well. There are a few ribs that are cracked from various events, but the canvas seems no worse for the wear. The shellac isn't the prettiest to look at, but it obviously did its job for this boat.
 
OK, another thought....what about the colour of the underlying filler?
With Shellacing in mind should the filler be closer to white or at least light grey for the shellac to show proper colour?

How many coats of shellac are normally used in the initial finished covering?
 
Just some pictures of canoe bottoms with shellac, to give an idea of what a shellac bottom looks like.

These were taken in September a few years ago, on a trip along the West Branch of the Penobscot, on a trip guided by Garrett and Alexandra Conover. As I recall, the canoes were built by Jerry Stelmok (gray canoe) and Rollin Thurlow (other colors), and were touched up yearly by the Conovers. By the time of the pictures, these canoes (all a number of years old) had seen almost a full season of nearly constant use.

sm 076 Alexandra poling 2 cr.jpg sm 1572 Lobster Lake beach.jpg sm Relaxing after swimming, before dinner.jpg
 
I’m a big fan of shellac bottom for a working canoe. That’s what I did on my Prospector when I rebuilt it. No worries about dragging it over beaver dams, etc. I re-shellac maybe twice a year. But it takes maybe an hour, the shellac dries so fast, then good as new.
Be careful, if you go with Zinzers’, to get fresh shellac, no more than 6-9 months old. Technical articles on shellac do confirm that once the shellac flakes are mixed with alcohol, the clock starts ticking. Some chemical process sets in. Fitz told me he had an old can of shellac explode on him. I am not sure of the difference between the two garden varieties of shellac, orange and amber. Rollin and Jerry specify amber, but I am not sure whether the sole difference between orange and amber is just color. I gather shellac has a lot of natural wax, hence the sheen of a fresh coat.
 
This idea is something I may like to do on my boat. Up here the water is dark, tea coloured and the rocks tend to sneak up and bite before being seen, especially in low light conditions. The new boat is going to be a tripper so shellac could add some protection.

I looked today and we only have orange or clear shellac available, even Lee Valley only sells orange flakes, so amber is not in the cards for me. Anyone ever work with the clear version? Can I put it over the finish painted bottom, would it need to be scuffed up or sanded first? I would just tape out the "football" area and put a couple coats on.

Thanks
Karin
 
In Stelmok and Thurlow's The Wood and Canvas Canoe, Jerry specifically says he uses as 3 pound cut of orange shellac, and does not use clear shellac which can turn white.

Shellac sticks to most everything, so you could probably put it over a finish painted bottom (sanding is generally called for when coating an existing finish), but you would not have one of the chief benefits of a shellac bottom -- the ability to repair the finish with just another coat of shellac. In the event that a coat of shellac over existing paint did not protect the paint from a close encounter with a rock, the scratched paint/shellac could functionally be recoated with shellac, but the scratch to the paint would probably be evident.

The shellac method, as described by Stelmok/Thurlow and others is basically intended to be applied when the filler is dried, as an alternative to paint.

I'm curious to know if anyone has used shellac on dacron.

If you try shellac over paint, let us know how things work out after a season of use.
 
Reading this thread was a shocker. Everything I’ve ever read says water and shellac don’t mix. My farther make a hutch, dining room table and sideboard all of which got milky spots over the years.
Reading back through the archives I learned shellac is used on the inside of a boat and outside with or without an overcoating of varnish.
Hard to imagine so I got out a board that had previously been French Polished months ago. It was done with 2lb cut orange shellac flakes. I put a wet bottom drinking glass on top and have kept it wet for three days. I also kept a small puddle on the board about 3 inches in diameter. No sign of any milking on the board.
I pulled out a hutch draw and put a glass on the bottom which was done in white shellac about 60 years ago. It took about 1/1/2 hours for it to get milky under the glass. (BTW: I put the draw in a sunny window which drew out the water and milky area).

Can someone explain what’s going on? Many posts in the archive do not mention the type of shellac. Is only orange shellac used? If white is used like straight out of the can Zingers I would expect it to get destroyed in water very quickly. Is white used?
 
Trouts2
I think It is mentioned somewhere in this thread that white is not used, but orange as evident by the pics of orangey bottomed canoes at least.
 
I have gathered from poking around on the internet and from some other sources, the following:

Shellac material, in its least processed condition, naturally contains a certain amount of wax. Much shellac, though not all, is de-waxed as it is processed for sale. It comes in different colors, ranging from dark to virtually clear, also called white." (White shellac is not to be confused with the shellac-based primer that Zinser sells which is actually white in color.)

It seems that de-waxed shellac is sensitive to moisture, whereas waxy shellac is water-resistant or water-proof.

As near as I can tell, clear or white shellac, and light-toned shellacs (blonde) ares always de-waxed, and therefore will be affected by water -- turning milky white if wet.

It seems that orange shellac is usually waxy, but may be dewaxed -- therefore, orange shellac that has not been de-waxed is the stuff to use on a canoe bottom. Clear or white shellac is not suitable. And I would guess that any other dark or darkish color, such as "amber," might be okay, as long as it has not been de-waxed.

While alcohol is the usual solvent for shellac, I have seen assertions that canned shellacs may have water added as well as other materials for preservatives, which may affect its ability to withstand water.

Alcohol comes in various flavors -- ethanol, methanol, isopropyl, denatured, rubbing (these terms are not mutually exclusive). Many, if not most, commercial alcohols contain some water. Because alcohol is hydrophilic (that is, it attracts water), it is difficult, though not impossible, to obtain 200 proof (that is, 100%) alcohol of any kind -- 190 proof seems to be the usual commercial upper limit. Rubbing alcohol found in drug stores varies between 70% and 90% alcohol. I'm not sure of the proof level of the alcohol solvent usually sold in paint and hardware stores. Denatured anhydrous alcohol, 200 proof except for .5% added poison to make it undrinkable, is available, but it is quite a bit more expensive than other alcohols.

So -- if I were using shellac on a canoe bottom, I would use orange shellac, and make sure that it has not been de-waxed. Cans of pre-mixed shellac usually state if they are de-waxed, but when the can says nothing, I'm not sure of the waxiness of the contents. It does not seem necessary that the alcohol solvent be completely free of water when used for this purpose, but it also seems that the less water, the better.

Sellers of flake shellac, which you dissolve in alcohol yourself, usually make the wax condition of their product quite clear.

As with much information gathered from the internet, there is no guarantee of accuracy, and if anyone has better or more correct information, I would welcome it.
 
Shellac.net and the Wikipedia article on shellac have educated me some. RE: color (amber, orange, blonde): “The colour is influenced by the sap of the tree the lac bug is living on . . .” Waxed or dewaxed is the critical factor in terms of use characteristics. Dewaxed is preferred for use under paints, varnishes, etc.
Re: it turning white and milky, I did once re-shellac my canoe. Then we had a big wind and rain storm. Next day, I found a lot of wet leaves piled up on it and, yep, under the leaves had gone white and milky. Looked like a camo job. That took another quick re-shellac to fix.
 
Re: it turning white and milky, I did once re-shellac my canoe. Then we had a big wind and rain storm. Next day, I found a lot of wet leaves piled up on it and, yep, under the leaves had gone white and milky. Looked like a camo job. That took another quick re-shellac to fix.
What was the first shellac that got milky?
What was the recoat with?
The leaves might have caused the water to stand for enough time to effect the shellac. A hair dryer should have gotten out the moisture clearing up the milky look.
When you are using the canoe after the re-shellac is there standing water in the canoe like from paddle drippings or something else that keeps water in spots for longer than a half hour?
 
Same I all ways used: Zinzer’s Amber. Mind you, canoe is stored outside: in rain and snow all the time. When I am camping I often leave it floating in the water, lake side, all day: it loses a little shine is all that happens. I have paddled in saltwater: nothing really changes.
 
Some questions by respondents to this thread that have not been answered.

Easternrivers - Medium dark gray weave fillerunder shellac gave a good amber shellac color on my first canoe. The second was applied over gray Interlux Hi Build primer which aso resulted in good amber color. Three coats of amber shellac was what I used for the initial season with three additional coats in the following two years. It is holding up well.

GREG - I used amber shellac on a chestnut Chum that I experimentally covered with heat shrink dacron with the cecofil,latex and sparkle weave filler concoction. One coat of Interlux Hi Build primer was applied over the filler and 3 coats of zinsser amber shellac over the primer. .
 
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Ed --

I just spent the evening patching dings and dents in our kitchen wall in preparation for a new coat of paint -- wish I had thought to use sparkle filler -- would have livened things up a bit! :)

Greg
 
Greg,
On my siniliar house projects I have just used walboard paste to smooth dings out, then lightly sand. Worked for me
 
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