Robertson or Oldtown, maybe Robertson-Old Town

As I posted the ser. number for this in the search forum, maybe you folks can look at my pics and help figure out what this is? Note: It would appear that the owner read the ser. number wrong...it should be 1124 JRR CO not TRR 60.

Not Old Town. Has features of a Charles River canoe.

"JRR CO" likely stands for J.R. Robertson Co.". Search the forums and you'll find information on Robertson. I know of one other like this that is a tagged Robertson and has the serial number 1117 JRR CO. Tag says "Manufactured by J.R. Robertson Co. Auburndale Mass.". It has the same tri-lobed deck, the same shape of wide mahogany rear front and rear, and wide, round-ended half ribs in the floor exactly like yours. If you look on the bow deck you may find two nail holes where a rectangular Robertson tag was at one time.

Your thwart is different from the one I've seen, but yours has a style that looks like something Robertson would have done. If you look carefully, you might find a wavy stamp of Robertson's name near each end of the thwart. Your canoe had outside stems which have been removed, and it is probably open gunwale, but the gunwales look like they've been fiberglassed over, or had some sort of other goo applied over them.

Very interesting canoe. Given the differences from most known Robertsons and the open gunwales, this may be be from the very end of the Robertson company's time.

H.E.

H.E. Pennypacker said:

"JRR CO" likely stands for J.R. Robertson Co.". Search the forums and you'll find information on Robertson. I know of one other like this that is a tagged Robertson and has the serial number 1117 JRR CO. Tag says "Manufactured by J.R. Robertson Co. Auburndale Mass.". It has the same tri-lobed deck, the same shape of wide mahogany rear front and rear, and wide, round-ended half ribs in the floor exactly like yours. If you look on the bow deck you may find two nail holes where a rectangular Robertson tag was at one time.
Your thwart is different from the one I've seen, but yours has a style that looks like something Robertson would have done. If you look carefully, you might find a wavy stamp of Robertson's name near each end of the thwart. Your canoe had outside stems which have been removed, and it is probably open gunwale, but the gunwales look like they've been fiberglassed over, or had some sort of other goo applied over them.
Very interesting canoe. Given the differences from most known Robertsons and the open gunwales, this may be be from the very end of the Robertson company's time.
H.E.

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I plan to go look at it on Saturday. And yes it is fiberglassed according to the owner.
I already did my search and saw the other Robertson you mention. it's a beauty.
I'm thinking strong on acquiring this simply for the unique canoe it is and the scarcity of these types here in New Brunswick.
I like the look of the outside stems and the half-ribs were a surprise to me...I'd never seen that before. Cool!
IF I get it, I'll post better pics.

Also, wondering whether you folks would keep the sponsons or remove them altogether?
I'm all for originality, but This makes for a cumbersome canoe to enjoy and it would not appeal to alot of canoeists these days other than the traditionalist I'm thinking.
Comemnts?

You're correct - some people would take them off and some would leave them. I would leave them. If it's a daily knockabout user, maybe much better to take them off. But if you appreciate the originality of what may be a very unusual canoe (I think it is), then why not restore it as it was built, use it, but also have another canoe that's lighter, easier to transport and paddle, and and a more common type for daily use? You seem to appreciate this one's apparent rarity. Old Town Yankees and HWs are very common by comparison and are great canoes to paddle.

H.E. Pennypacker said:

You're correct - some people would take them off and some would leave them. I would leave them. If it's a daily knockabout user, maybe much better to take them off. But if you appreciate the originality of what may be a very unusual canoe (I think it is), then why not restore it as it was built, use it, but also have another canoe that's lighter, easier to transport and paddle, and and a more common type for daily use? You seem to appreciate this one's apparent rarity. Old Town Yankees and HWs are very common by comparison and are great canoes to paddle.

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Yup, I like rarity. THis is not something you see up here, so I'm kinda considering it. Would be cool. And I would likely restore it to original if I can. This thing is almost a short deck courting canoe huh?
BTW, I do have a smaller Chestnut to use as daily driver.

Well, I made a deal I couldn't refuse on this Robertson. I did confirm the ser. number on both stems as 1124 JRR CO.
The boat looked odd to me in person as it is very shallow midships and my fear is that somebody butchered this canoe in a former life. maybe cutting the hull down for some reason.
I was going to walk away as I refused to pay the agreed price based on what I saw. Also, I thought it only had 6 broken ribs, turned out to be twice that many all down one side. There is a hog in the belly, that I'm not sure how to handle. I was disappointed.
But before leaving, the guy offered to to help me load it for a price that even if I can't fix it, not much is lost, so I brought it home...kinda kicked myself all the way too....shoulda kept my money I think. too late now.
I'd like to get anybody's assessment on this thing. I took pics up inside the stems and appears the decks are in good condition. not much rot that I can see. I peeled off a piece of glass from the gunnels. I found tack or brad holes, so I'm thinking this had closed gunnels at one time....maybe not. The ribs are very thin...maybe 3/16th if that. Also, although the thwarts appear to be aged and weathered the same, they are shaped differently. The forward thwart has wider ends and looking at it, it appears to be shaped like that to support a reclines backrest perhaps. I can't see any Robertson stamp on either thwart.
So heres more pics...hope they give some insight...
Specs:
L=17 ft.
W (inside planking = 35.5"
Depth at midships(to underside of gunnels) = 8 inches.
Stem height = 20 inches.

That might very well be the first Robertson sponson canoe I have seen. The use of "J.R. Robertson Co." first turns up 1916/17 and in 1924/25 they incorporated.

Dan Miller said:

That might very well be the first Robertson sponson canoe I have seen. The use of "J.R. Robertson Co." first turns up 1916/17 and in 1924/25 they incorporated.

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Dan, does that mean that the stamp, JRR CO was only used up until 1925? I thought the company was operating until 1940 or so.
Whats your takeon the condition? I know alot may be hidden under the FG.

Look at the ribs closely... Ribs that end at either gunnel only go 3/4 (ish) of the way across the canoe, to the far side of the bottom of the hull. The ribs in the picture (#6) all have one end in one gunnel, and the other end on the floor, so no ribs go entirely from one gunnel to the other. That seems unusual, though I'm no expert...

I did not catch that. I've never seen or heard of ribs laid out like that. Gotta be way rare.

Dave Wermuth said:

I did not catch that. I've never seen or heard of ribs laid out like that. Gotta be way rare.

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I guess thats why I brought it home...I have never heard of half ribs in a canoe.

This one shown in the thread at

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?4799-J-R-Robinson-1117

Is built in the same manner - ribs extending 3/4 across, from one gunwale to the opposite bilge, forming the effect of half ribs in the bottom.

About sponsons - have you opened the canoe up enough to get a sense of whether the sponsons are original? They are a little lumpy and uneven along their bottoms, which could mean they're an add-on, or it could be that the glass job was just poor.

H.E. Pennypacker said:

This one shown in the thread at

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?4799-J-R-Robinson-1117

Is built in the same manner - ribs extending 3/4 across, from one gunwale to the opposite bilge, forming the effect of half ribs in the bottom.

About sponsons - have you opened the canoe up enough to get a sense of whether the sponsons are original? They are a little lumpy and uneven along their bottoms, which could mean they're an add-on, or it could be that the glass job was just poor.

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No, I have not had the chance yet. Too hot to work outside this weekend I'm afraid. But I might get the heatgun out in the evenings this week.

Robertson referred to this construction method as "Lap Rib Construction" - it is briefly described in a 1938 flyer.

Robertson may not have changed the stamp after incorporation, so your canoe may have been built later than 1925.

Dan Miller said:

Robertson referred to this construction method as "Lap Rib Construction" - it is briefly described in a 1938 flyer.

Robertson may not have changed the stamp after incorporation, so your canoe may have been built later than 1925.

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Thanks Dan.
Were they the only builders to do this type of construction?

Was thinking about this Robertson today...Is there a way to re-condition the mahogany seats and thwarts, or are they too far gone and easier to just replace them?

Easternrivers said:

Was thinking about this Robertson today...Is there a way to re-condition the mahogany seats and thwarts, or are they too far gone and easier to just replace them?

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to the top. wondering if the mahogany seats-thwarts can be reconditioned or should I rebuild with new wood here?