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Serial # 2013 17

Discussion in 'Serial Number Search' started by sitzmark, Nov 28, 2010.

  1. Jan Bloom

    Jan Bloom LOVES Wooden Canoes

    The 4 is very visible and probably a camp number as sugested by Kathy. The oval for the possible decal would be a fairly small decal so who used small oval decals on decks?
     
  2. MGC

    MGC Paddlephile

    Decal

    I think that this is what Dan was referring to.

    With respect to the wood, it's mahogany.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Is that a little face I see--- like maybe an Indian?
     
  4. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    What state or province was the canoe found in?
     
  5. OP
    OP
    sitzmark

    sitzmark Curious about Wooden Canoes

    What state is the canoe from

    The canoe is in NH
     
  6. Fitz

    Fitz Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    How 'bout

    a pre-Old Town Carleton?

    They had heart shaped decks. There is a photo of Bob Bassett's Carleton deck here:

    http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=1906&highlight=Carlton

    The profile looks funny, and I wouldn't have expected a mahogany deck, but I'll throw it out there.

    Maybe a Skowhegan.... okay, I'm done throwing it out there.

    Fitz.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2010
  7. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    I keep returning to the Kennebec deck-- and Skowhegan's deck is much the same... will post a Kennebec.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    Yes, and the bow seat in Bob Bassett's pre-1910 Carleton was not hung from the gunwales as shown below. Are there any signs of blocks like these on the ribs?

    Benson
     

    Attached Files:

  9. OP
    OP
    sitzmark

    sitzmark Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Serial #2013 17

    I looked closely for wear or some type of fastener holes from blocks. None could be found. It looks like the seats are hung from the gunnels (see pic.)
    (Pics) - The 2 pieces of wood that cut across the width that created the bow seat (what I think is the bow) appear to be hung.

    Regards,

    Greg
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    Notice that Bob's canoe has untapered ribs. I would expect a Carleton to have had a brass tag rather than a decal as well. There is a short replacement thwart at the end that may have replaced an existing one - a feature of Carleton if it is found on only one end. Interestingly, Carleton catalogs make no mention of half ribs as an option until the 1920 catalog. The goring pattern may be similar to Bob's canoe?
     
  11. OP
    OP
    sitzmark

    sitzmark Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Terminology for a rookie

    Thanks for the feedback. I am coming up the terminology curve. I understand the half rib. But what does "goring pattern" mean? That way I can put a picture of Bob's canoe side by side with mine to see the "goring patterns".

    Thanks

    Greg
     
  12. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    Because the girth of the canoe is larger amidships than at the ends, there needs to be more planking amidships. Traditionally built (lapstrake or carvel) boats have planking sawn to shape that takes this change into account. Canvas canoe builders took a different approach, and instead used planking that is all the same width, but added additional planking to the middle of the hull. These shorter planks are called the goring planks, and the way builders terminated these shorter planks into the full length runs is different between different builders, and is often diagnostic.
     
  13. MGC

    MGC Paddlephile

    Gore

    Here is one example of a gore:
     

    Attached Files:

  14. Fitz

    Fitz Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    I have an old Carleton I just went and looked at. It was produced just before the sale of the company in 1910 I think. The thwart looks very different in my canoe - wide and thin, like older OT's. The ribs in my canoe are tapered and the seats hung from the gunwales. I think it is a Penobscot model. No half ribs.

    Dare I say, the goring looks similar to some Charles River boats, low serial number, and mahogany too, but half ribs are rare in CR boats but not unheard of.

    Have we covered all the possibilities yet?:)

    Interesting canoe to ponder.
     
  15. paul s

    paul s Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    just throwing this out there, planking pattern, decks, mahogany trim area where canoe was found. possibly crandell from worcester ma. its been a while since i looked at one, unsure about tapered ribs that this one has.
     
  16. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    All of the Crandells I have seen have tri-lobed (Robertson-style) decks, untapered ribs and brass builder's plates.
     
  17. paul s

    paul s Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    your right dan, what was i thinking? little bit of a brain fart on my part
     
  18. MGC

    MGC Paddlephile

    Steel screws?

    The deck screws are rusted. Who used steel hardware to build with?
     
  19. OP
    OP
    sitzmark

    sitzmark Curious about Wooden Canoes

    A Summary is in order for Serial # 2013 17

    Suggested conoe types to date:
    1. Racine (many types)
    - Chippewa (howerver serial number appears on rib for this type)
    Mahogany deck, but different shape than mine - single petal
    - Racine Boat Mfg in Muskgen, MI (similar pic & deck shape in 14' & 16')

    2. Charles River
    - Similar serial number location
    - Goring "fit"
    - Mahogany deck
    - 1/2 ribs rare

    3. Carleton
    - Serial number similar
    - pre OT had heart shape deck

    4. OT
    - Serial number similar location

    5. Others suggested
    - Shell Lake - similar planking pattern
    - Rhinelake - similar planking pattern
    - Kennebeck

    Suggestions on what would narrow the list
    - Short deck
    - Mahogany deck
    - Decal on deck (size of quarter)

    Obesrvations make:
    - 1/2 ribs may designate an upgrade
    - tapered ribs
    - gunwales uncovered
    - depth of canoe at mid point (49 ribs) is 10 1/2"
    - Width of canoe at mid point (1/2 way between rib 24 & 25) 37 1/2")
    (remember the gunwales are not there - would distance widen?)

    Given that I have taken the canvas off and have a better pattern for goring
    (see 2 pics)
    There are:
    a. 4 pcs of 2 3/4" strips coming outward from keel
    b. 4 pcs of tapered strips next (continuing moving toward gunwales)
    c. 1+ pcs to top of ribs where gunwales would be attached
    (if they where still there)
    I also included pictures of the bow shape (3rd pic).
    I had the pleasure of meeting Tom Seavey today. He was a great help in guiding me on the organization of doing a restoration and using current work examples to better understand terminology. "THANKS TOM !!"

    Onward to narrow the search!!!

    Greg
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Kennebec and Skowhegan have to be taken off the table because the heart-shaped deck wasn't mahogany--- their mahogany trimmed canoes had decks with coaming. I know the Kennebec records didn't correspond with the canoe in question, but the heart is such a similar shape that I wondered about the Skowhegan until I re-read the info on it.

    Greg-- you may want to look over discussions of the suggested canoe-species at www.dragonflycanoe.com/id/ and see what you think. Scroll to the types that have been suggested (on the left). You can also use the "search" function (above) to find past discussions of these canoes, many of which will have pictures.

    Note that Carleton canoes have had heart-decks throughout production, not just the early ones. The reason for focusing on the early ones has to do with the low serial number on the canoe in question.

    Charles River canoes-- can't think of any with heart-shaped decks. The heart deck is maybe the commonest shape, overall, so it almost seems (to me at least) that the Charles River builders avoided it--- maybe wanted to come up with something unique.

    This canoe would be considered "first grade", with the mahogany trim and half ribs. Does it seem that it had open gunwales? It seems unusual to me that a first-grade canoe would be used as a camp canoe. But maybe the camp was the second owner. Or it was a ritzy camp with a fleet of mahogany trimmed highly rare canoes by someone who only built canoes for that particular camp and to keep wooden canoe enthusiasts in the future speculating...

    Planking pattern isn't anything like any of the canoes in our barn. Seems unusual to me.
     

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