Rarest Old Town model ever made?

[Roger Young]

OK folks; Quiz time

Here's a question for anyone who fancies him/herself an Old Town history buff... in fact, the whole family, including novices, can play.

what's the rarest (least produced) model of watercraft ever made by OT??? (hint: size is the key here as much as style)

I think I've found an excellent candidate. Until tonight, I had seen only one reference in just over 115,000 build cards. Now, there's a second. Still pretty darn rare, I'd say.

Any thoughts ... or even wild guesses???

We'll keep this contest open for another week while I keep looking. To enter, all you have to do is post a reply here. Maybe the sponsors will come up with a suitable prize. Certainly, there will be 'bragging rights' to anyone guessing correctly.

And, NO, a pm will not get you any further hints.

 

[Benson Gray]

Old Town made many special and unique models over the years so how do you determine which unique model is the "Rarest Old Town model ever made?" I believe that all of the six example build records shown below may represent unique models. We would really need to find these canoes and verify the lengths to make sure that these were not just typographical errors on the records.

This group does include a 12 foot long Charles River model from 1909. The 19 foot long Guide's model was listed in the catalogs from 1901 to 1910 so there should be more than one of these around. A ten foot long fifty pound model sold on eBay within the last few years.

Who are the sponsors and what should the prize be?

Benson

 

[Roger Young]

Benson:

I knew someone would get 'technical' about the 'rules', 'judges opinions', etc.

The 'contest' is very informal; I suppose I'm the 'sponsor' (unless anyone else wishes to come aboard); the prize might be a cold beer if you catch me; and the whole thing is meant to be only in fun. There is likely to be no completely verifiable, indisputable answer from what I can see, but likely several very good candidates (again, from what I can see). Just thought I'd toss out a challenge in an informal way, and see what others thought. I'll be happy to eventually explain the basis of my 'pick'.

I'm in a state of near delirium ploughing through the build records, and just thought I'd try to lighten things up in the middle of this summer with almost constant rain. Hope I'm not offending anyone.

 

[MikeCav]

I'm in the process of writing an article for the Journal on a canoe belonging to electrical pioneer Charles Steinmetz - a 1920 12' CS Grade "Spec" (I think) - It maybe a Guide Special. No seats - just thwarts. The canoe is unrestored and VERY rough. Interesting lightweight construction - small ribs and thin planking.

He used it as his "office" doing much of his writing and planning on the waters of the Mohawk River while he was working with Edison in the early days of General Electric. Photo courtesy of the Edison Exploratorium, Schenectady, NY.
Watch the journal for the whole story.

 

[Andre Cloutier]

I'll collect the beer for the eventual winner next time I'm in Haliburton - with the rain and high winds that may be today.....

 

[Theurkauf]

I'm definitely a novice, but the 14 ft sailing dinghy I recently picked up seems pretty rare. I bought the Old Town catalog CD, and various sailing dinghies between 9 and 11.5 ft were offered between 1930 to 1959. No mention of a 14 ft version anywhere. The build sheet lists my boat as "sailing-metal" with a 30 inch mahogany deck, so I assume the it was a special order. My search of the forum turned up a tread started by Mark Adams, who also appears to have one. That makes 2, at least. Perhaps these boats don't count in the "rarest" competition, since the 14 ft dinghy they're based on was probably made in reasonable numbers. At any rate, I'd be interested in knowing how many sailing versions were produced and if anyone else out there has one. Roger, have you tracked the sailing dinghies as separate from the standard dinghies?

Bill Theurkauf

 

[Benson Gray]

The 14 foot sailing dinghy is clearly a rare one as described in the thread at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=3988 which you mentioned. The 14 foot long dinghy was listed in the catalogs from 1931 to 1941 so it is not surprising that a few of them would have sailing rigs added. The database project described at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ has seven examples of the 14 foot dinghy but none of these mention a sailing rig.

I did not intend to "get 'technical' about the 'rules', 'judges opinions', etc." and appreciate the fun challenge. No offence was taken or intended on my part either. I will also offer a cold beer for the winner.

Benson

 

[Roger Young]

In answer to Bill, no, I have not tracked sailing dinghies separately from other dinghies. I did keep track of them by length, and even by a fairly accurate count for the first part of my build card review, but gave up after a while when the distractions from my original quest of tracking 'display' or 'sample' models were taking me away from that goal. I have provided Bill with some deeper detail by pm, but can throw out some general dinghy info here, for those who may care. Firstly, though, please understand the limitations on my methodology.

There are over 200,000 files to try to get through. I'm doing a very rapid scan, almost like a 'fast forward', flicking through pages one at a time, as quickly as I can click the mouse button. Sometimes it's so rapid fire that I see 2 or 3 pages a second. I focus my eyes on one particular portion of the page - the part that shows length. Close to that is the 'model' section, so I try to pick up both a number and a word at the same time. I rely heavily on 'subconscious' eyesight to let me know when to stop and check something that I haven't directly been aware of.

It's a very rough and ready, quick and dirty, method. Probably prone to overlooking the occasional item, but unless I want to spend the rest of my life doing the looking, it's the best I can do at the moment. I have gotten through nearly 120,000 records in about a week, sometimes doing 1,000 in 15 to 20 minutes. This includes time spent making notes. A big strain on the eyes and the mind.

The notes on the cards are mostly hand-written, and by many different persons. Sometimes they are almost illegible. The words 'dinghy' and 'display' often appear to be very similar in fast viewing, so I have to slow down, often back up and enlarge the card view to decipher, make some notes, and go on. Tedious work. This I can tell you: in that 1914-1926 period, I found 451 9' dinghies and 377 11-1/2' dinghies, probably no more than 30 7-1/2 dinghies, and few of anything else. From 1906 to 1914, there were likely another 250 or 300 9' made (I didn't keep an accurate count) and about half or 60% that number of the 11-1/2' length. After 1926, the 7-1/2' model was becoming much more popular, but the 9' was still up there, along with the 11-1/2'. Those three are the most popular lengths as I have seen it.

This is, to be sure, an 'impressionistic' result. It was never meant to be truly definitive. I kept some serial #'s in some cases, a fairly accurate count in others. It's interesting to compare thoughts, and perhaps will be fun to share a beer, discuss and conjecture at the end of the search.

 

[Benson Gray]

My guess is that the most rare Old Town models are serial numbers 195380 and 195381 as shown in the images attached below. These are not wooden canoes but they have an interesting story. Bart Hauthaway designed many kayaks and canoes for Old Town in the late 1960s and 1970s. He often mentioned that he thought that one of his kayaks would make a great punch bowl for a wedding. One of his students called his bluff and had two kayaks made at Old Town with the same turquoise and flowered print fabric that was used in the dresses worn by her bridesmaids. The smaller streaker model kayak supported the punch bowl at her wedding reception as shown below and she got the larger mini-slalom model to paddle. Old Town probably never made any other boats like this before or since.

Benson

 

[Roger Young]

Benson:

re Old Town kayak production, you may want to have a look at:

82096, 87669, 87666, 98950 and 107488... all 10' versions, most from 1924/5.

85104, a 12' version (1924). I believe I saw a second 12' er, but neglected to record the number. This would likely be one of my candidates for 'rarest'. There are a couple of others that might also qualify (pending completion of my scan, of course).

As to earlier mentions of 14' dinghies, I have recorded the following numbers:
118625 108559, 108555, 108524, 108491, 109774, 109704, 109554, 109547, 109542, 109535, 109527 and (just now) 112449. There is also 109409, which is described as a "JA Special model"; obviously a sailor as it is noted as having long decks and a centerboard. (Oops, should have read your earlier exchange with Mark Adams first, Benson. Apologies for the duplication).

In going through the 112000 series, it is interesting that one "14' dinghy" shows up (see # above), and a new model begins to appear, called the 14' "rowing lapstrake" and/or "outboard lapstrake". Fair number of each having been made. I wonder if that's where interest in the 14' length went?

The mystery and the hunt continue.

 

[Roger Young]

A few more candidates for the 'least-produced' or 'rarest' category, as gleaned from a quick trip through the OT build records. Please accept that these are NOT exact counts, rather they are based on 'notations' made or 'impressions' gained as I went rapidly through the files actually looking for other things. It could also be the case that I have misread the handwritten lengths or descriptions, which are not always clear from the cards.

I saw three early canoes described as 'torpedo', one of which was #61768.

I saw two described as 'Ojibway', but neglected to note their numbers.

I found five 'Carletons' issued with OT serial #"s: 9113, 11625, 31824, 31872, 32202.

Curiously, amongst all the 7-1/2', 9' and 11-1/2' dinghies, I found two listed as 8' lengths, and then one described as a 6' dinghy with a 30" deck (now that would be a rarity, I suspect), and two more shown as 6' 6" dinghies. For the curious, you can look up #'s: 111514, 113063, 117361 and 118958. It seems that OT rivaled even General Motors in the number of model and style variations it was prepared to turn out to keep the customers satisfied.

An example of this may account for the five 'oddities' I came across a couple of nights ago: four 9' "Special" canoes made in quick succession for Abercrombie and Fitch: #'s 113846, 113851, 113858 and 113867. Looks like a private individual may have seen one of those and wanted one for himself, because another was made shortly thereafter: 114504, described as the "A & F Special".

It is interesting to note that 11', 12', 19', 20' canoes were regularly made. I noticed a whole bunch of 11', 12', 13' - 50 lb. models and 'special' models. There were even more than a handful of 10' canoes.

I believe the above notations are correct, but apologize in advance for any inaccuracies.

 

[Robert P. Ross]

Gee Roger, I think I gave you the answer to this before you even asked. By the way you still owe me a beer.

Sincerely,

Robert P. Ross
Ross Bros.
PO Box 60277
Florence, MA 01062
413.320.2306

 

[Roger Young]

Robert:
If this is in reference to your 14' OT 'sign canoe', you may be right, but the matter is open to challenge. I have found a reference to an 11' 'special sign' canoe by OT, made back in 1915. There are many references in the build records to 4' 'sign canoes', and at least one reference to an 8' 'sign canoe'.

I find this a bit puzzling. I always knew there were 4' and 8' 'display' canoes made by OT. The build records disclose that there were also 'display' canoes made in the 10' and 12' lengths, and described as such. I rather suspect that the 9' A & F 'special' canoes were meant as a form of 'display' item. So, that leads one to believe that the smaller advertising pieces did not just come in 2 lengths - 4' and 8' - but in at least six different lengths: 4', 8', 9', 10', 11' and 12'.

I also wonder about the terminology: "display" and "sign". Was this just a choice of description made by the tradesman concerned in the building, or is it descriptive of a real difference, in ALL cases? Your sign canoe is of a very narrow, deep "V" construction. The one that I once saw up close was also covered as well as being very narrow. Obviously intended to be hung outside as an advertising piece. I recall a couple of auctions where such items were offered.

On the other hand, 'display' canoes in the 4' and 8' lengths are generally just smaller versions of the full-size - width proportionate to length. 'Sign' canoes, at least as I know them, are a very different animal. What does one make of the fact that at least a dozen of the OT 4' canoes are designated as 'sign' canoes, while another 30 or so are described as 'display' canoes? I have seen 12 or 15 Old Town 4' display models turn up at auction over the years, but never one which I thought fit the description of 'sign' canoe.

So, I'm hoping that others of far greater familiarity and experience in OT history can shed light on this.

By the way, do you have a serial # for the 14' sign canoe you had? I'd like to add it to the spread sheet I'm trying to compose. I think there will be some very interesting info come from this for those interested in smaller models.

Beer to follow.

 

[Roger Young]

In answer to Bill Therkauf's question above about the rarity of 14' OT "metal type sailing dinghies" from the 1937 era, please see my response to his original thread "1937 Old Town sailing dinghy", also found in this "research" category.

In short, I did find several other 14' "metal sailing dinghies" along with even more "metal sailing" types in the 11-1/2' length. Build records are listed in that other response.

I came across one 10' "sailing dagger" dinghy from this period, but seem to recall also seeing others of similar description earlier on.

I found two, 17' OT, HW models, CS grade, noted as being built on a Carleton form, which I thought was interesting: 123675 and 123716.

And, if you're interested in 'customer loyalty', OT canoe # 123427, built between Nov. 1937 and Feb. 1938 (shipped on 29 March 1938) went back on 5 different occasions between 1938 and 1953 for repairs/refurbishing. The first time was because of peeling paint, a problem that seemed to plague OT for a couple of years (many items were either returned, or a painting kit was shipped to the customer). In the case of 123427, the canoe was replaced by another sent to the original buyer; 123427 was then fixed and resold, whose new owner, along with a subsequent owner, kept it up with a series of work orders over ensuing years. That's 'repeat business', for sure!!

 

[whalen]

Bring back the 60's

My vote is for the "Breakout" canoe. Man, what a crazy boat! I could dig paddling around in it with some cool chick.

see:
http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4616&d=1209335424

 

[Dan Lindberg]

I don't know how rare it might be, but I have a 14' squareback that was built that way at the factory, per the build record.

IIRC, it's not listed in any catalog, it appears to be a "cutoff" 18 ft guide.

In later years they offered similar model only a bit longer.

Dan

 

[Michael Grace]

See- that's the thing... There are going to be so many unusual builds over the course of the long Old Town history that this becomes an exercise in futility. Surely there are going to be quite a few "rarest" canoes. I'll bet there will be many one-of-a-kinds if you consider all of the possible options and special requests, and many more two-of-a-kinds, even more three-of-a-kinds, and so on. All this business about rarity, last one built etc., will really mean little unless the boat is truly well-built, made of best materials, well-cared-for, original, etc.... in short, whatever people find desirable. I'd bet that people new to any field of endeavor, including a passion for wooden canoes, may start out being fascinated by apparent rarity or last one built or some such, but over time become fascinated more by true quality and rarity based upon something meaningful (i.e., not just the one and only 13.72-foot-long low-end Otca with outside stems, gold stripe with turned down ends, and a painter ring mounted to a thwart instead of deck or stem).

But maybe that's just me...

Now Roger's original challenge was to guess the rarest model produced, which seemed to include not only the model per se, but length as well. I suppose there might be a single answer to this question, but I'm not sure even that really matters. If it turns out to be some odd-length HW (or perhaps anything else), I doubt I'll be driving the four corners of North America and beyond trying to find one!

Just because it's "rare" doesn't mean anyone will care.

 

[Roger Young]

Firstly, in response to Dan, after looking at nearly 150,000 build cards, even if fleetingly, I can tell you that square stern canoes were routinely produced by Old Town over the years. I've seen mention of many 14', 12' and, I believe, 16' to know they were more common place than rare. Before I began this quest, I had thought otherwise.

Secondly, to Michael, the thought of posing the question as to 'rarity' or 'least-produced model' occurred rather late one night. I'm not a canoe historian, make no pretense of detailed knowledge of OT history, or much related knowledge at all. My association with canoes has been interrupted over the years, much to my regret, and is more confined to smaller 'display' or 'sample' canoes, and to those made by native groups from around the world. I simply set out to try to count the number of OT display/sample models known to have been made, or at least able to be established by verifiable record. That task is now largely complete, with some surprising results.

It was amidst my amazement at the many variations of OT models found, that I began to feel somewhat in awe of the endless numbers of designs and style variations OT was seemingly prepared to make to keep their customers happy. Several people have said that there is likely no one answer; I'd have to agree. But there are some notable candidates, and a few of them have been mentioned. The whole idea was to have some fun, and to see what the readers might come up with. Certainly, having something of quality and being well-made is of prime importance. Top that off with 'rarity', whether it's a one-off, or one-of-a-handful, and that's something worth treasuring. Maybe even occasionally bragging about. Isn't that what collectors and admirers like to do?

Some of my favorites are "Tootsie" (described elsewhere), the 6' dinghy with 30" deck (little room for passengers or extras there) and the 9' Abercrombie & Fitch 50# Specials (of which a handful were made). Likely each was a very limited, special order, and I believe all would have been quality pieces, given their discerning customers. I think I'd be proud to have any one of them in my collection.

 

[Michael Grace]

Hey, Roger,

I didn't mean to sound too negative. The point really was that there must be many one-of-a-kind canoes, and therefore far more than a single "rarest". I agree that Old Town made some very nice boats. I particularly admire some of the ones from earliest days, and would argue that they can be among the finest canoes ever made. Add to that "rarity", as you said, certainly may make the canoe even more special. It's just that (to me at least), rarity alone doesn't make it wonderful. We've seen a few examples of apparently very rare canoes that were as "un-fine" as anything ever produced.

Anyway, you do seem to be having fun pouring over the records, which is great. But I thought this would happen in the dead of winter up there. Maybe that's just the southerner in me- what else could a person possibly do when the temperature dips below freezing?

Michael

 

[Roger Young]

Hi Michael:

Yes, the research probably would have been a project better saved for the cold and dreary days of winter. But, being of a somewhat obsessive/compulsive nature, and long wanting to know the answers re OT and Carleton models, I could hardly wait to begin, and even more impatient to finish. I've 'lost' a few nice days in the bargain, but also passed many a rainy one at the computer this summer. So, I think I'll reward myself with a trip to Florida for the winter.