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Peterborough Shorty

Discussion in 'Serial Number Search' started by Andy, Dec 17, 2011.

  1. Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    I have just got a peterborough shorty 12 ft with model number 86 and serial 1492. Can anyone give me some idea of age and it looks like the decks are not original would they be in butternut originally and what would the outwales be made from. Andy:confused:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Paul Miller

    Paul Miller Canoe Nut

    Hi,

    Dan's canoe guide list the model 86 as first built in 1929 and continued until late 30/s early 40's.

    The decks were most likely butternut and I have only seen White Oak as gunnels on that era Petes.

    You definitely need to redo those decks.

    Good luck,

    Paul
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks. I have looked at Dan's site and he also lists a 1914 start date for model number 86. Mine is a ceded strip and not canvas so do you think it could be the earlier model. I have removed the front deck today and it is full of rot and worm. I could do with pictures of early Peterborough decks. Can anyone help. Andy
     
  4. David McDaniel

    David McDaniel Canoe Dude

    Andy, The fact that your canoe has a brass tag instead of stamped in the stem, dates it as pre 1929. Hopefully Dick or Dan will chime in here soon to

    confirm this!

    ......Dave
     
  5. Paul Miller

    Paul Miller Canoe Nut

    Dick had a tread that talked about the change in Peterborough tags over the years and it in here somewhere.

    I have attached a pic of a deck from a Cedar Rib of about the same vintage. Rough but true.

    Good luck,

    Paul
     

    Attached Files:

    • c9.jpg
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  6. Paul Miller

    Paul Miller Canoe Nut

    After a closer look at your decks, I don't think they are butternut, but more likely Chestnut based on the grain pattern. Butternut doesn't show that much grain. But then again you don't see much of those decks.

    Paul
     
  7. Dick Persson

    Dick Persson Canoe builder & restorer

    Hi folks,

    The model #86 was introduced 1912 and was available in rib & batten, flush batten, longitudinal strip, cedar rib, and canvas covered. The cedar-strip model was available until 1925. Decks were normally made from butternut and outwales should be white oak.

    Dick Persson
    Buckhorn Canoe Company
    Buckhorn, Ontario
    www.buckhorncanoes.com
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  8. OP
    OP
    Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Wow. Some really useful information. I did not think the decks were butternut. I have stripped one side and the wood looks original but is very light so probably not chestnut, any ideas. I have noticed that both stems have been replaced with laminated ply!! I assume the original would white oak like the gunnalls. I am in the UK, any idea where I could get butternut. Thanks to everyone for the advice and looking forward to the next installment. Andy
     
  9. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Thought I'd post pictures of a couple of items made of chestnut. The color and grain-pattern is similar to the wood species on your decks-- the darker wood, beneath the top-pieces.

    The first picture is of the little table I use as my computer desk and the other is of a paddle.

    If the canoe contains any American chestnut, this may help date it.

    Kathy
     

    Attached Files:

  10. OP
    OP
    Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Thanks Kathy it certainly looks like chestnut so now I am searching for american chestnut in the UK! Any help? Andy
     
  11. Dan Miller

    Dan Miller cranky canoeist Staff Member

    Good Luck! It doesn't even grow on trees in America anymore!
     
  12. David McDaniel

    David McDaniel Canoe Dude

    Here is a pic of a Peterborough model 44 with chestnut decks! DSCN0304.jpg
     
  13. David McDaniel

    David McDaniel Canoe Dude

    Andy, Have you removed the two side strips covering the decks? I'm thinking the original deck my be under them. It looks to me that

    someone has replaced the king plank and added the two side strips!

    .....Dave
     
  14. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Wow, that could be a toughie, as it can be hard to find in the US! At the end of the 1800s and early 1900s it was still being used in houses for door and window trim here, and this is how it sometimes comes into the hands of canoe restorers-- at salvage yards or if you know a house with chestnut trim that is being torn down.

    You may have to settle for using ash...

    Kathy
     
  15. Ed Moses

    Ed Moses LOVES Wooden Canoes

    Sassafras is the closest grain pattern to chestnut should you be unable to locate any chestnut. In New England, it is the restoration wood of choice for carpenters making home repairs in historic homes with chestnut trim where they cannot secure old growth chestnut. If we were to place my sassafras paddles next to Kathy's old chestnut paddle ( pic in an earlier response) , one would be hard pressed to tell the difference, the grain pattern is sooo similiar. I have also been using sassafras for replacement canoe decks and boat transoms. I have to haul sassafras logs from NJ to saw on my sawmill as it does not grow large enough in diameter in New Hampshire, rarely larger than 4-6". Hope it is available in the UK .
     
  16. Dick Persson

    Dick Persson Canoe builder & restorer

    Andy,

    I went back to my Peterborough files and took a closer look at what woods they listed for decks at various times. It seems that the cedarstrip canoes were listed with butternut decks all through to the early 1920's when chestnut also was listed as deck material. Please post a picture of the metal thwart tags as this may make it easier to narrow down the dating.

    Dick Persson
    Buckhorn Canoe Company
    Buckhorn, Ontario
    www.buckhorncanoes.com
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  17. OP
    OP
    Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    What a lot of information

    I will try and give you more to investigate. I have removed the bow decks and they are rotten and were refitted with filler pieces of wood around the outside edge this is why the extra strips were fitted to hide the mess underneath. The stern deck is in better condition but is well rotted,but at least I have a good template to use to replace.
    I show a picture of the tag so Dick can try and research some more info and pictures of removed decks.

    The next question to all is seating. The thwart looks original and I think the seat mounting is original but there is no seat. so what would it have looked like. I also show pictures of laminated plywood stems. I presume these were white oak in the original.

    P1010502.jpg P1010504.jpg P1010505.jpg P1010509.jpg P1010511.jpg P1010514.jpg

    Thanks again to all

    Andy
     
  18. Dick Persson

    Dick Persson Canoe builder & restorer

    Andy,

    I am looking for a picture of one of the thwart tags. Your canoe should have four of them, two on each side. See attached picture.

    Cheers
    Dick Persson
    Buckhorn Canoe Company
    Buckhorn, Ontario
    www.buckhorncanoes.com
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 10, 2012
  19. davelanthier

    davelanthier Wooden Canoes are in the Blood

    Mar. 2011 QT and G 050.jpg Mar. 2011 QT and G 022.jpg Mar. 2011 QT and G 025.jpg Mar. 2011 QT and G 038.jpg New Folder 090.jpg New Folder 100.jpg

    Andy,
    Here's a few photos of the circa 1912 16' Peterborough I restored this year. The stern seat was a factory option in mine. It was a hand caned seat with the same mounting as yours. I could email you a large photo file of this canoe if it would help. This one never had thwart tags. Maybe Dick can explain.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2011
  20. OP
    OP
    Andy

    Andy Curious about Wooden Canoes

    Dick I have checked and there are no thwart tags and I cannot see any evidence of fitting.

    Dave I would appreciate some pictures of the restored canoe can you mail them to a.noblett@tiscali.co.uk

    Shopping list so far
    American White oak have found supply locally
    White Cedar to replace some strip edges around the decks (cannot find only red available in UK I need about 4ft of strip)
    Wood for decks cannot find sassafras, butternut what about Elm or Sycamore I need enough for both decks.

    Andy
     

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