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Ot 15-2781

Discussion in 'Serial Number Search' started by Kathryn Klos, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    The seller says it's circa 1920, and I would simply say the number is wrong, were it not for the remnants of a decal like the one on the catalog CD dated 1906 (attached below). The seller says the canoe comes with a catalog, and maybe this catalog is circa 1920... not the boat.

    Anyway... nice little fifteen footer on eBay... is the record available?

    Thanks!
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    There is no Old Town build record for serial number 2781 so it can not be verified by the serial number. The auction house has not yet responded to my request for additional information. Is anyone else planning to bid on this?

    Benson
     
  3. MikeCav

    MikeCav Restorer/Videographer

    Nearby serial numbers look like it is in the neighborhood of 1906 if that is a complete mumber. Looks like a nice boat.
     
  4. hopkintoncedar

    hopkintoncedar Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    bidding

    I'm watching this Benson...
     
  5. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    Well, it looks like Mike and I will see you at the live auction in Pennsylvania. I noticed that there is already one other bid on the eBay site from Friday.

    Benson
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2007
  6. OP
    OP
    Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    I'll be watching the outcome-- can't afford to bid because our "canoe money" is currently earmarked elsewhere!

    If anyone here has bought something through the live auctions, I'd be interested in knowing how that process works. I have dial-up and have assumed I'd be too slow.
     
  7. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Yeah, I've been thinking of this one also. Clearly an early Old Town- early lines and construction details fit with the serial number; I think Mike's estimated year of manufacture is far closer than the auction house's. I wouldn't have chimed in on this, but now that the auction is being discussed far and wide, there will be many watchers. Too bad for anyone who might have wished for a smaller audience, but I guess this is the nature of the internet- nothing stays quiet long!
     
  8. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    If anyone else is planning to attend this auction in person then please let me know so that we can get together to celebrate, commiserate, or at least share notes after the sale. Thanks,

    Benson
     
  9. Emerson Bornman

    Emerson Bornman Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    Hey Benson,

    The auction is 20 miles from my house. Look me up if you make the trip.

    Emerson Bornman
     
  10. Emerson Bornman

    Emerson Bornman Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    BTW, I'm the one in the stern.
     
  11. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    It appears that several of us will be bidding on this canoe so let's see if we can have some fun. I propose that we start a pool to see who can guess the final price. If one of us wins it then I also propose that the winner gives one of the paddles to the person whose guess is closest to the final price, just to add some incentive. This final price will include the 22% buyers premium and the 6% sales tax if you are not buying it for resale. The auctioneer has estimated that the price will be $600 to $800 but that seems very low given the number of people here who are following this. My guess is that it will sell for $5500 or more, what is your guess? See you at the auction.

    Benson
     
  12. Emerson Bornman

    Emerson Bornman Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    eBay is bad news

    I hate eBay. I planed to buy the canoe for $500. Now that "the cat is out of the bag" I'll be an interested bystander.

    Emerson Bornman
     
  13. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Yes, the gunwales run past the stem as in early Whites, Robertsons, Nuttings and others. There are some other interesting features- chamfered stem edges, early-style O.T. thwarts, a thick square keel (assuming original, which looks like a good assumtion here), and as Gil pointed out, un-tapered ribs. Planking is narrow with only three tacks per plank at each rib. Some of these features are very similar to those of many Charles River-area canoes... maybe the Robertson influence... That's definitely the early Old Town logo on the deck; you can clearly make out shape and some drawing details, plus "INE" of "MAINE"

    The fairly fine entry suggests I.F. model, but early catalogs are confusing on length. Prior to about 1903, if I remember correctly (it's late), the I.F. came in 15' length, but about then and later, it is only listed in longer lengths. HWs and Robertsons were listed in 15' length as well.

    Price prediction? If not for all this discussion, I would have been surprised if it broke $1500. But then the accessories could also help run it up. Hmmm... Anyone remember that graceful Gerrish in very nice condition that sold at auction recently for $1400?!
     
  14. OP
    OP
    Kathryn Klos

    Kathryn Klos squirrel whisperer

    Michael-- Was that on eBay that a Garrish went for $1400? We got one for a bit over $700 which might have gone for less if others here had known about it, because we ended up bidding against someone who just didn't want it to go for cheaps.

    I just don't see anyone bidding simply because others have found the canoe interesting... we all learn from discussions like this, and my feeling is that the more awareness we have, the fewer boats will be lost (to time, to bookcases, to idiot restorations).

    I tend to watch all eBay auctions for interesting canoes, just to see what happens... and I bid on very few. My guess is that, while many will watch the auction, if the bidding goes higher than expected it will be "outsiders" pushing it up.

    Is the bid-guessing game like "Price is Right"-- where we have to come in under the bid, and the one closest to it wins?
     
  15. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Hi Kathryn,

    No, this wasn't an Ebay canoe; it was through an auction house. It was an amazingly well-preserved canoe. Appeared to have no structural damage at all, and it had a very old canvas on it (original?). Looked to have been refinished inside a long time ago- very clean.

    Like you, I try to keep an eye on the market. Knowing that others like you do as well, I doubt (or at least hope not) that many nice old boats don't end up as bookcases. In fact, given the slow apparent sales of half canoes on Ebay, I wonder if that fad hasn't begun to pass. We can hope.

    In auctions where there is a live floor, often a different kind of crowd attends- different from the Ebay crowd. Sometimes fantastic bargains can be had; other times prices go far higher than they would in a "knowledgeable" canoe crowd. I had one bit of fortune in this vein- learned of a canoe at auction here in the deep south, and ended up with an absolutely pristine very early E.M. White- by far the finest E.M. White I've ever heard of, and extraordinarily fancy one to boot! And all of this at a bargain price! I should note that there was an old farmer there who wanted the old canoe just to leave down by the farm pond- literally! It has been suggested that I write the story of this canoe for Wooden Canoe- it would be fun if I could find the time...

    Michael
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2007
  16. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    My thought was that the closest estimate wins, even if it was higher. However, my opinion may not matter since the winner usually gets to make the rules in most things. We will see how this goes. There are now two absentee eBay bids so someone else has joined the fun.

    My experiences with live auctions are somewhat limited but similar to Michael's. A 1922 Molitor went for over $1800 many years ago and it needed a lot of work. A 1914 fifty pound model with two paddles went for less than $300 this year and it needed very little work. I have attended several auctions with old wooden model canoes but they have always sold for much more than I was willing to spend and often to people who knew very little about canoes.

    Benson
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2007
  17. Michael Grace

    Michael Grace Lifetime Member

    Well it appears that the old Old Town at the Wiederseim auction in PA sold to a floor bidder for a final price of $2100 (plus 22% buyer's premium- YIKES! :eek: ). Did one of our fellow WCHAers take the canoe home? I chose not to bid.

    This auction contained many other interesting primitives as well. It would be fun to hear from one of the attendees. What was the canoe like in person? What were the paddles like?

    Michael
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2007
  18. Emerson Bornman

    Emerson Bornman Enthusiastic about Wooden Canoes

    I was at the auction. The canoe is going home to Maine as I write this.

    Emerson Bornman
     
  19. MikeCav

    MikeCav Restorer/Videographer

    Sure is a pretty boat. Auction went fast - anyone want to fess up to being one of the phone bidders? Michael, the paddles looked like on old one, a couple 50-ish OTs and one square tipped (with copper missing) of undetermined age and origin.
     
  20. Benson Gray

    Benson Gray Canoe History Enthusiast Staff Member

    Okay, I'll confess. I bought this canoe in person and would like to express my appreciation to anyone who didn't bid very hard, especially the six absentee bids from eBay. My extraordinary gratitude goes out to everyone who didn't bid at all. It is now back home in Maine. This represents much more than just another canoe to me so I am very happy to have it.

    The paddles are a bit of a mixed bag as Mike mentioned. Gil Cramer wins the prize for guessing closest to the final price. I just realized that the shipping may cost more than the paddle is worth so I am willing to offer an original canoe catalog or a catalog CD including free shipping as another option.

    The canoe appears to be an HW model by the shape and dimensions. Dan Miller and I paddled it this morning and it doesn't even leak. (I would never have guessed that roofing tar would work so well for canoe repairs.) The keel doesn't look original and was screwed in from the outside. Has anyone ever seen an original one done like this before?

    It was a very interesting auction. A clock sold for $13,000 while the four of us from the WCHA were waiting in the lobby for the canoe to come up.

    Benson
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2007

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