Old Town Identification

[GrandLakerMitch]

I have the opportunity to purchase this canoe for refinishing and I'd love to get some comments from the forum on the identification of the canoe. I took the best picture I could of the serial number, so hopefully someone can identify it for me and the approximate age or year.

Would anyone have any idea of this canoe's value? I've been told I can buy it cheap, but I'd like to make a fair offer.

Also, does the oar lock hardware look original? I was told the canoe was refinished 10+ years ago, but i'm weary of the quality of the job that was done.

All info welcome, thanks so much guys.

MITCH

 

[Paul Miller]

Looks like an OT of what I can see of the deck, hull and stem look OT, you just don't see as many OT's with that little carring twart at the bow.

The seats are definately no original, nor are the bilge keels. No way those blocks or wood under the oar piece is original.

Hard to tell by the pictures how many ribs or how much plank needs to be replaced, plus we don't have pictures of the stem tips.

I don't like sponson, but you need thwarts and seats.

All those factors determine the price and at 18' it's too big for a hanger.

Hard to believe it was restored 10 years ago. They should get their money back for the paint mfg., or whatever that is on the outside of the canoe.

$200 to $400.

Or whatever a willing buyer will pay.

Good luck,

Paul

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

It's definately an OT, as one of the decks had an original decal. The photo I took of it did not turn out.

Are the sponsons original to the canoe do you think? Or an addition after the fact?

I'd like to have it restored as close to it's original build as possible.

I've notived a lot of people on here getting old information direct from OT with the serial number. How do I go about obtaining that?

THanks so much Paul!

MITCH

 

[Gil Cramer]

Mitch,
It looks like a special order HW sponson model rowing canoe. If so, it could be almost all original. If you can get the entire serial number from the stem and post it in the serial number section, somebody will post the build record. The serial number is most likely six digits before the 18 and starts with 114 since the canoe appears to have been made in the 1930's. Gil

 

[Paul Miller]

I stand corrected; I didn't know they made a Special Order rowing canoe.

I'm sure the build record will show that. I have the disks but there at home.

Not sure I'd want to row it, but it could be interesting.

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

Awesome Gil, Thanks so much.

So the photo I took of the serial number appears to be 11408 18

So you're saying I am missing a number somewhere?

I could not for the life of me find another number on there. The photo does show a little distortion where a final number might be, but I can't make it out. Any suggestions on figuring that one out? I suppose I only have 9 options after the 08.

I would LOVE to find a build record for this canoe to know if it was a special order or not. And to know if it was originally built in that manner.

MITCH

 

[Dan Miller]

Old Town 11408 is a 16' HW sponson canoe.

There are a couple sponson canoes in the 11408X series, but none are 18'

Carleton 11408 is a 17' sponson canoe.

You may need to double check the length, or double check the number (it should be on both ends, one may be easier to read than the other).

 

[Greg Nolan]

serial number -- build record

The Old Town canoe with serial number 11408 is 16feet long, CS (common sense) grade, HW model with western cedar planking, spruce gunwales, decks, and thwarts, a keel, and was originally painted green (?). It was fitted with sponsons, finish rails of spruce, a mast seat and step, and was equipped with lee boards and 2 paddles. It was half-built on June 17, 1909, and varnished on July 24, 1909. It was shipped on July 31, 1909 via the Boston and Maine Railroad to Camp Marienfeld, Chesham, New Hampshire. A scan of this build record can be found by following the link behind the thumbnail image attached below.



While the oarlocks on your canoe do not appear to be original, Old Town did sell various rowing boats and canoes, and they equipped those boats with oarlocks similar to those in your pictures. If you have the horns to go with the bases, you are lucky. Horns are available from time to time used (they appear on eBay from time to time, for example), but there are many small variations in size, and a given pair of horns will often (indeed, usually) not match a given pair of bases. Don't buy replacement horns without trying them on your bases unless you can be sure of being able to return them with a refund. Similar new oarlock sets are available for about $200 a pair.

Also, it looks like your canoe was fitted with a floor rack -- though not necessarily as original equipment. The bilge keels may also not be original equipment.

This scan above and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/about-the-wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://store.wcha.org/WCHA-New-Membership.html to join.

It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. If that is the case, photographs of the deck, side profile, seats, and other details would be helpful in identifying the canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.

For a discussion of determining value, see the post at: http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.ph...en-canoe-worth

Greg

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

incredible information! That information definately does appear to be the case with the canoe pictured above.

What does the 18 at the end of the serial number refer to? 11408 (18)???

 

[Gil Cramer]

Try 111408 for the serial number

 

[Greg Nolan]

On an Old Town canoe, the 18 would refer to the length of the canoe. That's why we don't think 11408 is a complete serial number.

Greg

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

actually 111408 18 might be it.

the other photo of the serial number i took may show that, but im not certain it's another "1"

 

[Greg Nolan]

111408 looks like it's the one. I'll have a copy posted shortly.

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

how come i can't attach photos anymore? i just recieved a better picture of the serial number, and I believe 111408 18 is correct.

but the reply function wont allow it.

 

[Greg Nolan]

The Old Town canoe with serial number 111408 is 18 feet long, AA grade, HW model with western cedar planking, mahogany open gunwales, mahogany seats, thwarts, and decks. It was equipped with sponsons, a floor rack, a keel with a full-length bang plate, and bilge keels. It was built in1932. The original exterior paint color was dark green.

Part of the scan of the build record is not very good; the shipping date and the “shipped to” information is not fully readable, but after being returned for repairs, it looks like it was shipped to a Geo. E. Riegel.

It was returned for repairs in September, 1932, and was returned to Mrs. Geo. E. Reigel in 1934, 1935, and 1936. The repair record is also difficult to read, but it seems to make clear that the canoe that Mrs. Reigel was in Lucerne, Maine, which is maybe 10-15 miles south of Old Town.

In December 1932, after repairs, it was revarnished and painted with design # 37. In October of 1934 it was returned to be stored, and in June 1935, something was “fitted,” the design 37 was colored and varnished, and a day later, everything was apparently revarnished. In September 1935, it was returned for repair and storage, and in June 1936 it was again fitted, with the design revarnished. The same thing took place in September 1936 – June 1937. The next date of return is not shown, but again in June 1938, the canoe was fitted and the design revarnished.

At the end of the 1938 fragment, a new name, J.W. Parker, in Brownville Junction, Maine (perhaps 30-40 miles NNW of Old Town), appears, under the date September 11, 1942.

A scan of this build record and repair record can be found by following the link behind the thumbnail images attached below.



I won’t repeat the rest of what I wrote above, although it is still applicable.

Greg

 

[Gil Cramer]

Mitch,
The seats and seat braces are similar to the ones used on Old Town square stern canoes. I would guess that they were installed by old Town,but maybe not originally. You can check the inwales for holes where the original seats and thwarts might have been. If there are none, then the bench seats are original. The seats should rest on cleats that are screwed through the ribs and planking under the canvas. The oarlocks and wooden blocks are also typical of the ones used by old Town on square stern canoes. Mu guess is that they were also installed by old Town.
Gil

 

[Dan Miller]

how come i can't attach photos anymore? i just recieved a better picture of the serial number, and I believe 111408 18 is correct.

but the reply function wont allow it.

From the "Quick Reply" box, which is where you land when you hit "Reply," you can click the "Go Advanced" button just below the editor window to get to the full service editor and attachment manager. Or, you can click the "Insert Image" icon in the formatting bar just above the editor window.

 

[Greg Nolan]

Additional thoughts

This is a nice canoe. Lots of people don’t like sponsons, and remove them. Me, I have a 17’ OT HW that was built with sponsons, which were removed. When I restore the canoe, I will be replacing the sponsons (but I have other canoes without sponsons). This canoe clearly needs some cosmetic work, but may not need much more than than (unless you mess with the sponsons and the seats). This is not a canoe for wilderness excursions involving portages. But it could be a great family canoe at a lakeside camp. It could easily enough be fit out for sailing, if that activity appeals. If it suits your taste and your needs, I would think it a sound purchase.

As I noted above, oarlocks were apparently not originally installed, but OT may have installed them on one of this canoe’s many trips back to the factory.

The current seats may not be original – I think the build record would have reflected such seats being installed as part of the original build and even as part of repairs made on the return to the factory. They may well have been installed by OT, although I would have thought that the maintenance/repair notations on the back of the build record would have noted their installation. The build records and maintenance/repair records, however, are not always complete or accurate. Both the oarlocks and seats may have been put on by the owner (perhaps after the canoe moved to Brownsville, if that is what happened). Gil has been around these canoes much more than I have, and his experience is probably worth more than a reading of these records.

If you should replace the current seats with the sort of cane seats that may have been originally installed, you will need to install two or three thwarts to give the canoe proper structural bracing. However, these seats look sturdy and serviceable, and if you plan to row, look like they may be in the proper location for rowing. It’s hard to see just how they are installed, and I before keeping them, I would want to make sure that they are actually serving the purpose of thwarts, and are not hung in a way that may be harmful. As Gil notes, they should be installed on cleats. Consider that even if they are not original, they are part of the history of this canoe, and need not be automatically rejected as “inauthentic.”

Sponson canoes typically did have the small carry thwarts that this canoe has – these canoes are a bit heavy, and the carry thwarts greatly facilitate moving the canoe around.

Design no. 37 looks like this:



Good luck, whatever you decide to do, and if you do get and refinish the canoe, please post pictures. We love pictures.

Greg

 

[GrandLakerMitch]

wow, i couldn't have imagined that much information. I'm very interested in having it refinished to the original specs. Having design 37 is awesome!

I've never been a fan of sponsons, but if they were on the original build, I think it would be very cool to keep them.

I'll be sure to include pictures and send back some info if I do end up purchasing it.

 

[Gil Cramer]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1946...ns-and-Rowing-Position-EXC-Cond-/180885155525

The oarlocks and seating arrangements of this canoe are very much like yours, even though it is a square stern paddling canoe.