Help ID our canoe!!

[Knu]

Hi everyone, I am hoping that some of you might help me ID the canoe I am working on restoring. The more I work on the boat the more I want to know its history!!!

We bought the canoe used, the previous owners bought the canoe 40+ years ago secondhand.

Here are the dimensions: 18'x~36"x~11.5".

I have been using the dragonflycanoe.com site as something of a guide, and I am a bit stumped.

The canoe has 3 thwarts (all different woods though apparently) and two seats, though the daughter of the previous owner recalls her dad adding a seat. So, beween all those there are a total of 14 bolts. Seven of those bolts are the diamond heads. For what it is worth, the diamondhead bolts all have square nuts and the round bolts all have, presumably newer, hex nuts.

So, that would lead me to believe it could be a Old Town, possibly a Charles River or Ideal.

However, I looked all over the stems and there seems to be no sign of any SN's. I know the previous owner did some work on the canoe, including glassing it (@&$@$&%!!). The Deck also seems to be not original.

So, while it is possible that the stems were both replaced, I am skeptical as they are not in great shape and based on the other work that was done to the boat I doubt he would have put the effort into replacing both stems. (For example, a very beat up rib was "fixed" with wood puddy and fiberglass).

The canoe had a keel on when I purchased it, which based on the hardware inside the canoe seems to be original.

 

[Benson Gray]

It does look like an Old Town so I would encourage you to take some paint stripper to the varnish on the tops of the inside stems and see if you can find any hidden numbers there. The information at http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=791 may help. Good luck,

Benson

 

[Kathryn Klos]

If there aren't any half-ribs, your canoe wouldn't be the Ideal model.

You've done a lot of groundwork on the canoe's history-- it would be great to have that pan-out, so that you can come up with numbers leading to the build record. After using stripper on the stems, take a digital picture and see what shows up. Compare stems. This video has an easy-to-find serial number, and also shows how we look up the build record once we have the number:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYwVSJhejFA

Good luck!

Kathy

 

[Knu]

Serial # - ??

So I attacked the stems with some stripper today.

On the stern stem I found a pretty legible 18, which makes sense as it is an 18'er. However, I saw no sign of any other numbers on the stern end.
On the bow end, the numbers are pretty rough, 39(?)3(?)_(?)6. I looked and looked, but I don't seem to see any sign of an 18 following that set of numbers.

Is it possible that they put just the length on the stern and the other #s on the bow end?

 

[Steve Ambrose]

What you're reading as ?6 on one end is likely 18. 6's and 8's can be tricky. Try placing a piece of paper over the numbers and rubbing with pencil lead. Sometimes this method gives a clear imprint of the serial number.

 

[pklonowski]

If you can post a photo ofthe numbers, sometimes many eyes can read things better. Sort of a committee, but a functional one.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Getting the third digit would narrow things down enough to perhaps find the right record.

 

[Knu]

Hi All,
Been pretty busy, but had some time to spend on a beautiful fall afternoon working on the canoe project.

So, I am pretty confident now on the 393_6. The wood between the 3 and the 6 is dinged up a bit so I don't think I am going to be able to decipher the 4th digit, and, admittedly, my confidence level on the 6 is not all that high. Is it possible do searches of incomplete SNs?

These numbers are all on the bow end. There is no sign of an 18. Steve, thanks for the 6/8 suggestion, but I don't think there is enough space between the 3 and the last 6 for there to be a space and a 18.

Strangely perhaps, the stern has a pretty clear 18, and the wood down there is in pretty good shape, but there is really no sign of any other digits at the stern. Was there a time when the SN was split between the stern and bow stems rather than printed in both places?

 

[Kathryn Klos]

I ran all ten numbers, from 39306--> 39396 and couldn't find an 18 foot canoe with open gunwales and the classic short deck. These scans in my set of records are smeary and the serial numbers hard to read on some, so if anyone else with the records wants to take a run at it, you may see something different. Some records came close--- for instance, an 18 foot HW but with the gunwales closed. I know some closed rail canoes are sometimes converted to open, and maybe this is what happened to your canoe. These canoes dated from 1914-1915.

As far as I know, the complete serial number and the length were placed on both stems on Old Town canoes... some very old ones have the length preceding the serial number, rather than after it.

Searches of incomplete serial numbers require a lot of digging... but can be done. It's time-consuming though. I'll be stuck watching Denis get chemo tomorrow and may fool around in the records some more... it's always fun to hit the right one after an involved hunt! Missing two digits means a lot of poking around though... took me a while to do 39306 through 96... and looking for the last digit too means doing 39300 through 39309 and then 39310 through 39319, then 39320-->39329... well, you get the picture... it's time-consuming, but can be done.

Kathy

 

[normsims]

I looked up all the build records for 393_6. Of those, four were 18-foot canoes, but 39396 was missing. I have attached all four build records.

If these numbers are correct, especially the first 3, then the boat looks to have been built in 1915. Two of the build records indicated sponsons, but they may have been removed. Also, there is hardware in one of your pictures for a floor rack, but none of these build records indicate a floor rack. You might also check the shipping locations on the records to see if any of them were in your neighborhood.

As Kathy indicated, these build records don't match up very well with your canoe.

The canoe looks to be in good condition and it's nearly 100 years old. Seems to be well worth restoring. Let us know if you have any new ideas about the serial number.

Click on the scans to get a larger image. These scans and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you and anyone else reading this will join or renew membership in the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to renew.

Norm

 

[Knu]

Wow, thank you!

I really appreciate that you are taking so much time and energy to help me out. I have been really impressed by how helpful, respectful, and generous the WCHA community is.

After remeasuring, the depth of the canoe is ~13", so more in line with a Guide or Otca. Also, there are floor racks as an option.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Otcas have a longer deck with coaming, and your canoe has the classic OT short deck-- so the Otca can be crossed off... we'll keep looking!

 

[Fitz]

OTCA's Short Deck

Otcas have a longer deck with coaming, and your canoe has the classic OT short deck-- so the Otca can be crossed off... we'll keep looking!

Is this always the case? I'm just curious and wondering about short decks in later canoes. I have a 17 foot that originally had sponsons, and the build record calls it an OTCA. It has short decks. The shape, size and history of the canoe also make sense with the build record. Maybe the sponsons prompted use of the short decks?

 

[Dan Miller]

Is this always the case? I'm just curious and wondering about short decks in later canoes. I have a 17 foot that originally had sponsons, and the build record calls it an OTCA. It has short decks. The shape, size and history of the canoe also make sense with the build record. Maybe the sponsons prompted use of the short decks?

Otcas were built with long (20") decks with coamings through 1956. After that, they used the standard short (16") deck on Otcas. This corresponds with the replacement of the original 16' Otca molds with the Yankee molds.

The deck on the canoe in question is clearly a replacement. Hard to tell if it is a replacement for a long deck - telltales would be the location of screw holes and a small notch in the inwale where the coaming would have set into it.

 

[Knu]

Decking

Not only does the decking not appear to be original, but the inwales have been worked on as well. The inwales basically end at the decking, with a separate piece of wood running along the deck to the tips. Perhaps if the coaming cut into the inwales, this is where a previous repair just cut off the inwales and then added those extra pieces.

Also, it looks as if the tip of the deck doesn't extend as far as it should. Basically, the tips of the stems are a rotted, so I think the previous owner just reinforced the deck and glassed the bejeezus out of the tip. It seemed to work ok. When I get home, I will measure the length from the true tip to where the inwales are cut off.

 

[Kathryn Klos]

I'm not as good at profile recognition as others here, but your canoe appears to have more up-sweep than I'd expect in a Guide model.

My thought with this short deck is that someone was trying to replicate what had been there, but it's a good thought to look for signs of an Otca deck.

I'll keep poking through the records...

Kathy

 

[Benson Gray]

I have a 17 foot that originally had sponsons, and the build record calls it an OTCA. It has short decks. The shape, size and history of the canoe also make sense with the build record. Maybe the sponsons prompted use of the short decks?

My 18 foot Otca with sponsons from 1936 has long decks as shown at http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8099&d=1248028261 and http://forums.wcha.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=10025&d=1268689103 here. I will double check the build record for yours if you want to provide an image of the serial number. Thanks,

Benson

 

[MGC]

Otcas have a longer deck with coaming, and your canoe has the classic OT short deck-- so the Otca can be crossed off... we'll keep looking!

I am not sure that you can draw any conclusions from these decks as they look tweaked.
It appears to me that these decks were installed over the top of the inside rails during an earlier repair.
Also if you look at the shape, they seem to be atypical.
A close up of the decks would be helpful to confirm this.

 

[Fitz]

Otca

Hi Benson:

Not to derail the thread, I had forgotten about the change in the OTCA mentioned by Dan. The canoe is 1959 vintage.

The build record is here:

http://forums.wcha.org/showthread.php?t=2039&highlight=Town

 

[Kathryn Klos]

Fitz-- Does your Otca have carry thwarts like the HWs with sponsons do?