Difficult to read
- Thread starter H.E. Pennypacker
- Start date
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
I will post info on the ones I've looked up so far in case someone else is looking at the same time, so we don't duplicate efforts.
If the canoe is a Molitor model, it would date from the 1920s... but I'll assume it's a long-decked canoe and will only post the records for the ones likely to match. For instance, 46664 is a 15 foot CS grade 50# model (1918), which probably isn't your boat.
46665 is a 17' AA grade Charles River with dbl gunwales
16605 is a 16' CS grade CR (1911)
will keep looking...
If the canoe is a Molitor model, it would date from the 1920s... but I'll assume it's a long-decked canoe and will only post the records for the ones likely to match. For instance, 46664 is a 15 foot CS grade 50# model (1918), which probably isn't your boat.
46665 is a 17' AA grade Charles River with dbl gunwales
16605 is a 16' CS grade CR (1911)
will keep looking...
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
A few more... these canoes seem very similar; all would have the short "ogee" deck... I can post all the build records later tomorrow unless you say that none seems right.
46604 17' CS CR 1918
46667 17' CS HW 1917
46607 17' CS HW 1917
16667 16' CS HW 1911
16607 16' CS CR 1911
16661 16' CS CR 1911
16601 18' CS CR 1911
The "original" OT Molitor was 18' long, had 36" bow deck, 24" stern deck, and was AA grade... they are c. 1920s... so what I'm shooting for is a canoe of AA grade with long decks and 17-18 foot length.
46604 17' CS CR 1918
46667 17' CS HW 1917
46607 17' CS HW 1917
16667 16' CS HW 1911
16607 16' CS CR 1911
16661 16' CS CR 1911
16601 18' CS CR 1911
The "original" OT Molitor was 18' long, had 36" bow deck, 24" stern deck, and was AA grade... they are c. 1920s... so what I'm shooting for is a canoe of AA grade with long decks and 17-18 foot length.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
H.E. Pennypacker
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Kathy- thank you so much for all the searching, and BCam- thanks for the photo edit. Frustrating situation- looks like someone purposefully obscured the serial number at each end (stolen?!). Decks are 24" stern, 36" bow. All mahogany trim. Combination of bunged countersunk bolts and diamond heads (latter are fewer, so I think diamonds were added later). Open gunwales. Looks like maybe sailing rig originally (OT gudgeons mounted as from factory, and imprint of what looks like a mast step). Wish I could get pics.
Attached is a build record that shows a 17' Molitor. The "17" on the canoe in question is very clear, and the whole canoe measures a little over 17'. What about stems? If you cut these in cross section they're not a trapezoid- the sides kind of bow out, so the cross section would be sort of oval.
Again- thanks for the help. Sure would be nice to know what this thing is.
Attached is a build record that shows a 17' Molitor. The "17" on the canoe in question is very clear, and the whole canoe measures a little over 17'. What about stems? If you cut these in cross section they're not a trapezoid- the sides kind of bow out, so the cross section would be sort of oval.
Again- thanks for the help. Sure would be nice to know what this thing is.
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You might want to try photographing each number in close-up, assuming your camera can focus that close, with some side lighting, which will enhance the texture. Also, if you post them at the highest resolution possible, I think I can bring out more of the underlying detail. I don't think they've been purposely defaced, it just looks like age, varnish and a not so good original imprint.
If you can't get a close-up, at least try the side lighting and higher resolution.
If you can't get a close-up, at least try the side lighting and higher resolution.
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
The original model that Old Town called "Molitor" appears in build records ranging from 65XXX to 94XXX (roughly) if this helps at all... but Old Town could have built a canoe and used the 36/24 deck lengths and not called it a Molitor.
H.E. Pennypacker
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Thanks again for the advice and help, Kathy and BCam . The stem profile is (to me) strange- not at all like the typical OT "circle", not so recurved as the modern Molitor, from what I see in photos not even as recurved as the old Molitors, and certainly not a Morris profile. I've gotta get some pics! About the possible defacement, the stems are clean and smooth with nice varnish... everywhere but at the serial numbers (not the "17", just the 5-digit part). There, the varnish is pretty much gone and there seem to be gouges over and around the digits. Even so, more looking may help. I need to get this thing, take the decks off and seats out to get better access. More soon. Hopefully all this will result in something interesting!
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
H.E. Pennypacker
LOVES Wooden Canoes
Another try...
Okay, with thanks to the intrepid data miners out there, here goes another try. The reason that the serial number looked defaced and the reason it's so hard to read is that there appear to be TWO serial numbers, one stamped on top of the other!
Perhaps it would be wise to check both OT and Carleton records. Could it have been started as OT and then renumbered and sold as Carelton, or vice-versa?
The number I've been trying to post now looks more clearly like 1666x5 17. The 4th position seems to have a curve at the top pf the digit, so maybe 0, 2, 3, 6, 8 or 9. And I'm not at all positive about the 5th digit.
The OTHER serial number looks like 694x4. There's a hint of a long-ish straight line a the top of the 4th position, which may mean 5 or 7.
See attached photos. The "166x5" (if that's what it is) seems to be a sharp, deep stamp right in the middle of the stem. The other number is lower on the stem (more toward the edge), and seems to be made with a wider-font stamp. Note that the length ("17") is put on with the wider-font stamp, so I think the "694x4" was original and was over-stamped with "166x5". According to the OT chart, "69xxx" would be around 1922 and "16xxx" would be around 1912. When would a "16xxx" Carleton have been produced? Maybe in the early 20s?
More info- mahogany inwales, outwales, thwarts, seats. Set up for sailing. OT-style gudgeons installed the way OT did. No half ribs, but there was a floor rack. Outside stems. Open gunwales. Bolts of steel, countersunk and bunged. Looks like white cedar ribs and red cedar planking. Outside stems oval in cross section. Decks and kingplanks put on with tiny nails- not screws. Coamings put on with oval-head screws, as typical for OT.
Okay, with thanks to the intrepid data miners out there, here goes another try. The reason that the serial number looked defaced and the reason it's so hard to read is that there appear to be TWO serial numbers, one stamped on top of the other!
Perhaps it would be wise to check both OT and Carleton records. Could it have been started as OT and then renumbered and sold as Carelton, or vice-versa?
The number I've been trying to post now looks more clearly like 1666x5 17. The 4th position seems to have a curve at the top pf the digit, so maybe 0, 2, 3, 6, 8 or 9. And I'm not at all positive about the 5th digit.
The OTHER serial number looks like 694x4. There's a hint of a long-ish straight line a the top of the 4th position, which may mean 5 or 7.
See attached photos. The "166x5" (if that's what it is) seems to be a sharp, deep stamp right in the middle of the stem. The other number is lower on the stem (more toward the edge), and seems to be made with a wider-font stamp. Note that the length ("17") is put on with the wider-font stamp, so I think the "694x4" was original and was over-stamped with "166x5". According to the OT chart, "69xxx" would be around 1922 and "16xxx" would be around 1912. When would a "16xxx" Carleton have been produced? Maybe in the early 20s?
More info- mahogany inwales, outwales, thwarts, seats. Set up for sailing. OT-style gudgeons installed the way OT did. No half ribs, but there was a floor rack. Outside stems. Open gunwales. Bolts of steel, countersunk and bunged. Looks like white cedar ribs and red cedar planking. Outside stems oval in cross section. Decks and kingplanks put on with tiny nails- not screws. Coamings put on with oval-head screws, as typical for OT.
Attachments
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Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Ah-Ha! Good suggestion to check in the Carletons!
Carleton 16605 is a 17 foot AA (top) grade Indian Princess model "Molitor Style" canoe--36" bow decks, 24" stern decks, with open mahogany gunwales, keel, outside stems, floor rack and a 5" thwart replacing the bow seat. It was originally black with a 1/2" gold stripe with turned down ends. It was shipped to South Akron, Ohio, on April 29, 1922. Image of the scan of this record is attached below-- click on it to get a larger image.
This scan and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to join.
It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.
Carleton 16605 is a 17 foot AA (top) grade Indian Princess model "Molitor Style" canoe--36" bow decks, 24" stern decks, with open mahogany gunwales, keel, outside stems, floor rack and a 5" thwart replacing the bow seat. It was originally black with a 1/2" gold stripe with turned down ends. It was shipped to South Akron, Ohio, on April 29, 1922. Image of the scan of this record is attached below-- click on it to get a larger image.
This scan and several hundred thousand others were created with substantial grants from the Wooden Canoe Heritage Association (WCHA) and others. A description of the project to preserve these records is available at http://www.wcha.org/ot_records/ if you want more details. I hope that you will join or renew your membership to the WCHA so that services like this can continue. See http://www.wcha.org/wcha/ to learn more about the WCHA and http://www.wcha.org/join.php to join.
It is also possible that you could have another number or manufacturer if this description doesn't match your canoe. Feel free to reply here if you have any other questions.
Attachments
H.E. Pennypacker
LOVES Wooden Canoes
As Charlie Brown said to Lucy when she diagnosed him with pantophobia (the fear of everything): "THAT'S IT!!!" Thanks Kathy. You're the best!
When I realized there were two serial numbers and both seemed to be from the early 1920s, it suddenly occurred to me that the lower number might be a Carleton. Thanks very much! A challenging journey makes the destination that much sweeter!
When I realized there were two serial numbers and both seemed to be from the early 1920s, it suddenly occurred to me that the lower number might be a Carleton. Thanks very much! A challenging journey makes the destination that much sweeter!
Kathryn Klos
squirrel whisperer
Agreed! I love these hunts, especially when we find the buried treasure!
