Washer/Grommet for keel screws?

[NorthCountryWood]

Ok, looking to put the keel back on my 57 OTCA. Have the original keel and the holes are already in every other rib. Even found 1 brass washer varnished in one of the screw holes.

My question is.....anybody know a source for those washers?

Checked Jamestown Distributors and the local hardware/West Marine stores and didn't see anything similar.


Also, what size/type screw is used for the stem bands.

Thanks in advance.

[smallboatshop]

Hi,

The washers are cup washers and are available from Old Town Canoe. The new ones aren't the same as the old but they're close.

The stem band screws are usually #4, 3/4" slotted, flat-head brass; sometimes oval heads are used.

Dan

[demadsen]

I was looking for the same thing and found this. Scroll down til you get to copper rivets and roves. The roves look exactly like the keel washers to me. Maybe they would sell you 20 or so so you wouldn't have to buy a 1/2 pound?
David

www.tendercraftboats.com/fasteners.html

[Todd Bradshaw]

My Old Town doesn't have a keel, so I'm working off old memories here, but aren't the keel screws just put in using standard brass finishing washers? If so, you can get them at most hardware stores to fit various sizes of flat or oval-headed wood screws. It's not a bad idea when you go shopping at hardware stores to stick a refrigerator magnet in your pocket before you leave the house. A lot of the common "brass" bits and pieces that they sell are actually coated steel and the coating won't last long in a marine environment. Check each piece with the magnet before you buy it because it's not unusual to find a mix of real brass pieces and coated steel pieces have been stick in the same bin. If it sticks to the magnet, you don't want it on your boat.

Copper roves tend to have a fairly small hole in their centers and unless you were to buy very big ones they probably won't take a screw bigger than maybe #6 or so. When used for real riveting you want to be able to force the rove down over the rivet's shaft, stretching the hole and causing it to stick in place long enough to get the rivet trimmed down to length and properly peened. To use them as washers for screws you would likely wind up holding them with a pair of pliers and trying to drill out the holes to a larger diameter first, which wouldn't be much fun. I doubt they would be a great choice for this job.

Rivets and roves are certainly worth knowing about though. I'm surprised that they have never really filtered down into the canoe industry. They're stronger than screws and lock the pieces together, they require a smaller hole in the wood than a screw, leaving more wood for strength and they're fairly easy to remove, replace or tighten when needed. One of these years I'm going to use them for installing gunwales on a canoe. They worked pretty well holding boats together for the Vikings!

[Brent Cummings]

Funny I just came from the garage where I was preparing to do another coat of varnish. I temporarily screwed the keel to the boat so it wasn't laying on its new canvas and realized I may have lost some of those special washers too. I looked at my collection of roves to see if they would be good alternatives. Todd is right in that you would have to drill out the holes, but I actually had to do this on my last riveting job and it wasn't too bad. The diameter of the roves I have are bigger than the washers so some work would have to be done to ensure the washer or screw heads don't sit proud. The roves are also twice as thick although I don't think that would matter. Someone somewhere must have these washers. I'll let you know if I find some.

[Michael Grace]

No, these aren't the standard finish washers that are readily available today. These old oens are conical like the copper roves, but they were made of very thiun brass, and their diameter steps down rather than it being a smooth cone. These are not available anywhere these days. You could possibly make your own...

Interestingly, Old Town sometimes used a round-headed screw with a circular fin at the base of the head. I'm guessing these were used when the supply of regular washers had run out and the new supply delivered because I've seen them on canoes built between the dates of other canoes with the finish washers. The "fin" screws look just like a round-headed screw with a flat washer underneath (except these were made in one piece). Replacing these is easy- just use an appropriate sized screw with the appropriate sized flat brass washer underneath.

[NorthCountryWood]

That copper rove looks pretty close. I'm gonna pick up some flat brass washers and try pressing a cone into it. Shouldn't be too hard.

Here's what they look like.....You wouldn't think it's that hard to get a pic of something that small but good god it took about 30 tries.

[NorthCountryWood]

Another question about the keel....sealant/bedding compound.

Was told by the guy at the West Marine (he's a wooden sailboat guy) that the best option was 3M Marine Adhesive Sealant 4000 which is removable and remains flexible.

Anybody have any experience with it?

[Todd Bradshaw]

For being goo-in-a-tube (not my favorite stuff) 3M 4000 is a very good product. I calked my shower stall with it and it outlasts anything I've ever found in hardware store calk by a factor of about ten to one. On the other hand, good marine bedding compound is also very good stuff. On some of the old sailboats that I've restored, the bedding compound under winches and other hardware was the only part of the entire boat that wasn't trashed. I'd probably stick with the traditional method and use bedding compound.

[NorthCountryWood]

According to Jessica at Old Town:
"The cup washers are item number 01.1315.1810 and are $0.08 each. These can be purchased by calling 800-343-1555, press 0, and request to speak to Customer Service."

:cool:

[Benson Gray]

The cup washers are now listed at http://oldtown.wcha.org/parts.html on the Old Town Wooden Canoe Restoration Supplies site. This can be a good resource if you are looking for any other obscure Old Town canoe parts.

Benson

[Douglas Ingram]

These countersunk washers from Lee Valley will work well, too, and keep the traditional look, even if the work slightly differently.

http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=1&p=47230&cat=3,41306,41316