Shellacking your Bottom

[Fitz]

I'm starting to think about finishing the Prospector project. I was going to go with a painted finish, but experimenting with a shellac bottom keeps dancing around the foggy noggin.

Any experience out there with the comparative durability and maintenance of shellac vs paint on the bottom of a canoe?

This will be a tripping canoe, so it will see it's fair share of shallow water, beaver dams etc. How will shellac hold up on a trip? What are the maintenance issues? Can I paint over it, if I change my mind? How is shellac applied - sanding between coats? How many coats are needed?

I did just find this article:

http://www.wcha.org/wcj/v23_n1/greeting.html

[Charlie Franks]

Hi Fitz,

I've paddled canoes with shellac on the bottom on trips, and they seem to hold up well. The claim is that the shellac is somewhat softer than paint, and tends to hide any minor scratches you may get. They did seem to be quite durable on the trips I used them on. There's also a claim that the shellac may slip through the water better than paint, but I never noticed any difference there. I think the shellac does require more frequent maintenance than the paint, though.

There are some people who swear by shellac for tripping canoes. I know the Conovers shellac the bottoms of all their tripping canoes. Garrett's mentioned that each spring he lightly sands the shellac and applies a new coat.

For a tripping canoe, shellac seems like a good choice to me.

Charlie

[MikeCav]

An advantage of shellac is that maintanence is easy, but must be done more frequently than paint. The primary benefit is that shellac will chemically bond with the previous layer, unlike paint that goes on in layers and only has a physical bond created by sanding. That makes touchup easy. Lightly sand the old shellac to get rid of crud and smooth scratches, then apply the new shellac. The new shellac will "melt" into the old.

Another advantage is coat times. Shellac, being alcohol based, dries very quickly. You can apply 2-3 coats/day.

[Giiwedin]

I re-shellac every year, depending on usage. My procedure is based on input from Jerry Stelmok about ten years ago. I've found that if the surface is warm (not hot) it aids in application and drying. Two coats per day is no problem, if it's warm.

Use BULLSEYE 3lb. AMBER SHELLAC (available at most hardware stores) with a good quality paint brush (china bristle)

1. Dry boat.

2. Sand old shellac with 180 grit dry sandpaper - be easy on it, so you don't sand down the filler.

3. Patch or ambroid where necessary.

3. Apply first coat. Shellac is funny to apply, very sticky. Work in patches down the hull, overlapping at the edges. It will vary where brush strokes end, a little darker there because of overlapping strokes - but will sort of even out in a week or so.

4. Let dry completely (1 hr in sun)

5. Very light sand

6. Apply second coat. And that's it.

[dpurcell]

What if you had a keel? Would you use shellac or varnish on it?

[Dave Wermuth]

Does the shellac go on over the filler? Or over primer? Or over Paint? I never considered it before-------until now.
regards, Dave.

[Giiwedin]

Shellac is a bottom treatment for guide canoes used in rocky shallow water because it's somewhat "slippery". It also evaporates over the course of a year, so can be regularly renewed without excessive build-up. Keels are counter-productive in rocky shallow water, so you don't ordinarily find them on shellaced hulls. My gut reaction would be that if you had a keel you'd be painting, not shellacing, your hull. Better to get the opinion of an expert like Rollin Thurlow or Jerry Stelmok, however.


The shellac is applied over the filled, unpainted canvas.

[ken mueller]

Any thoughts on shellac vs varnish on the inside of the hull?

[Giiwedin]

Probably not a good idea. It doesn't last long; it colors; and, compared to a good varnish, it looks bad.

[Dan Miller]

Any thoughts on shellac vs varnish on the inside of the hull?

Shellac will

-turn white when it gets wet
-not hold up nearly as well as varnish - it doesn't get as hard
-will dissolve when you spill your sippin' whiskey in the bottom of the canoe.

Shellac is good for sealing up unfinished parts that are going to be bedded with bedding compound, for instance the edges of decks.

Cheers,
Dan

[anthony]

I'm not at canvass stage yet but the paint VS shellac question is nagging me as well.Perhaps someone could post a pic. of a shellac job??? T.M.

[Larry Meyer]

I'm a big fan of shellac bottom for a canoe that's going to get its bottom scraped. I'll try to post a picture of mine--a prospector I redid a ways back. Basically what you're going to get is a medium, say, mahogony brown. Close up, it appears mottled and sort of blotchy, but not extremely so. I think color match is an issue. I chose medium to dark green--Interlux Malachy Green--and I think it works well with the shellac.

[Larry Meyer]

I tried to attach a pix. Not sure it worked.

[Giiwedin]

Here's a E.M. White Guide with a shellac bottom, at camp in the Quetico. If you look closely, you'll see that the color is splotchy - which can't be avoided, but doesn't look bad overall. The shellac doesn't show the scratches, which is nice. The marine enamel is Interlux Malachy, but here it looks more blue than actual (a function of my slide scanner - which doesn't like dark green).

[anthony]

Yow...that looks nice! How did you handle the transition area between shellac and paint? Does a "re-shellac" job end at the paint/waterline? whee... T.M.

[Larry Meyer]

Line between shellac and paint is handled with pinstripe tape. I got white boat tape from West Marine, about a quarter inch wide I think. Automotive pin stripe tape would do.

Process of getting a level waterline is described in Stelmok and Thurlow. Involves a level and having a level floor. I basically did a good guestimate cause I ain’t got a good level or a big enough floor. I picked about 7-8 inches below the gunnel at center, did an estimate of rise from center to the tip and marked it. (7 inches plus the rise.) Then tape a string at the center and bring it out to my mark at the curve of the stems. Remember you’re putting a straight line on a curved surface, so it’s only a hypothetical straight line anyway. About the only time anyone would notice the line might not be 100% true is when its sitting in calm water loaded perfectly balanced.

[Mike Harmon]

Has anyone tried attaching a scribe/pencil to an extension mounted to a rolling cart? Would seem you could then roll the cart around the canoe and get a level line (assuming a level floor surface.)

[Mark Reuten]

A nice touch is a waterline with a little rise from end to end. It keeps the line from looking droopy. A simple way to do this is by taking two sheets of say 1/4 or 3/8 plywood and blocking the ends up just an inch or two. cleat them together at the middle to maintain a fair line and block your canoe canoe on top and scribe your line. If your canoe has much hollow to the ends you may want to give it a little more swoop just at the ends.
I've used the automotive tape and it works well. Specify "high performance" tape when you buy it. Attached is a job I did where I hade a decal made up to match the tape.

[Giiwedin]

If in doubt about the good looks of shellac, here's my son in the E.M. White, for an after-dinner solo on Sandy Lake (Bowron Lakes, B.C.).

[Rollin thurlow]

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet, but the suface of the shellac will oxidize over time. The oxidization will be like a fine dust on the surface which you can wipe off. So even if you don't use the canoe the bottom sheallac will need and extra coat or two every year or so just because it oxidizes off.

Also for a easy to do waterline, just set the canoe on a level floor, level the canoe from side to side by putting a level on the center thwart; for a water line 6" above the bottom just take a 6" block of wood, hold a pencil on the top of the block and just drag the block of wood on the floor around the canoe, tracing off the line on the canoe. I use to have to take the canoes into my living room to have a level floor before I built my "new" shop.
Rollin

[yelnif]

beautiful canoes Robert,Larry,and Mark- I was wondering- are you shellacing an all wood canoe or are they being canvased then the bottoms shellaced and uppers painted. If they are canvassed, how many coats of shellac/ varnish does it take to fill the weave of the canvas?

[Giiwedin]

Shellac is applied over filled canvas. I apply two coats, once a year. The upper section of the hull is marine enamel over filled canvas.

[anthony]

Been thinking(oh no!)...Would it be possible to tint the filler (before filling the canvass)to darken the shellec portion? T.M.

[spincircles]

Hello all,

Just started posting to the forum. Looks like a great resource!

Question: Would it be practical to shellac un-filled canvas?
Queston: Would the rougher surface grab and stick more to rocks and become a problem?


Supporting thoughts: I'm thinking that for a pure-utility, practical tripping canoe, this could work OK. No filling on the the canvas and just shellacing the entire canvas. No fill, no paint, no waterline paint...Just shellac. Would be lighter, no paint or filler to dry/crack, and the entire coat of shellac is sandable and self-bonding, allowing re-coats when needed.

Only downsides I see are a "slower" canvas, with slight texture remaining, and a less appealing finish to the eye. Perhaps the rougher surface might grab and stick more.

Comments?
Thanks,
Pat Smith

[MikeCav]

Pat,
I don't think shellac over unfilled canvas would work well - it does not have enough body to fill the weave and is so thin that it would penetrate and cause the canvas to stick to the planking. Plus, since shellac is alcohol soluable, if you spill a Jack Daniels in the canoe, you'd probably sink!:eek:

Take a look at the cecofil and latex filler thread. Cecofil is very lightweight, waterproof and dries quickly. Cecofil alone will seal the boat, although leave the surface a bit rough. The latex filler is used to fill the canvas weave for a smooth finish. You could probably skip this step to save a pound or two.

Probably the best method would be to cover the boat with dacron and cecofil. Just be sure the wood is really smooth, cause any bumps will show.

[MGC]

So Rollin, are we to understand that the reason you built your new shop is because your wife threw you out of the house because you were painting boats in the living room?

[Rollin thurlow]

That was the lest of her complants! ;)