And so it begins...

[nmerrill]

Had this baby sittin' in the back yard for over a year now...
1942 OT CS grade 18 ft "paddling" square-end sponson model, with sailing rig.
Just thought I'd share.
Next installment - covered, and then uncovered...

Sure to be asking plenty of newbie questions as time goes on!

Nat

[MikeCav]

Sing along with me... "Da, da, da - another one bites the dust!"

Welcome to an addicting but great hobby and community!

[nmerrill]

Thanks Mike, true I'm sure, and unfortunately only one addiction of many for me...
Should be a great project. A little broken wood, re-canvas, strip, re-varnish, new sail... and lots of other stuff I don't know about I'm sure! Oh yea, a new trailer...

[nmerrill]

And covered.... Just in Time!!

[nmerrill]

And uncovered...
A few shots of the beauty (project) in all its glory (more like gory)...
Looking from the inside, looks like a few cracked ribs
A little rot here and there.
A large hole in one sponson, with broken rib behind

Thought I had read here that the sponsons are typically covered separately, then attached. This one was covered over the sponsons in one shot. Although, the sponsons were canvased on the "back" facing the hull before they were attached.
I did find that this is not the original canvas either, as there is evidence of patching with something like bondo.

Started to try and remove one of the long wooden strips below the sponson (what is this called?), which is held on with brass bolts (6-32?) through to the inside, and a nut on the inside, but ended up snapping the head off of 3 (out of 7) before I decided to take a step back!
:eek:

[Fitz]

Pros - correct me if I am wrong, but I've never seen a keel like that...or is it a centerboard??:eek:

I think someone has re-canvassed or at least re-installed the keel.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Douglas Ingram]

No keel like any I've seen. But then I've never seen an Old Towne...

The sponsons that I've seen on Peterboroughs were done much like this. Canvas the canoe as per usual, then apply a piece of canvas along the sheer, let it drop down, then attach the sponsons, then wrap the canvas up over the sponsons. Your choice as to whether to fill the canvas before you sponson her up.

I've never seen that filler strip. I supsect that it was added by whomever recanvassed it previously, probably to keep water out from behind the sponson. I could be wrong.

[Denis M. Kallery]

Recently there was an Old Town 16 footer on ebay that was fully restored that had sponsons. It had the same type of strip under the sponson. Can you tell if that strip is Mahogany -it looks like it may be in the photos. Do you have tha build record for this boat? If you do - does it mention the use of Mahogany? The one on ebay was an AA.
Have fun, Denis

[nmerrill]

Interesting, I'll post a better shot of the keel this evening. It is a rather substantial unit. This boat came with a sail rig, which the build record does not mention. I wonder if the keel was added later to increase sailing performance? This boat lived on Lake George, Ny., and draft was likley never an issue.

Douglas, If I understand your description of the sponson canvasing on Peterboroughs, this is not like that. Looks to me like the sponsons were on, and the canvas draped over the entire hull, including sponsons, and then that sub-sponson strip was scewed into place pulling the canvas tight up below the sponson. The canvas appears to be continuous under the wooden strip, and on around the sponson. Not sure if it was filled before or after the wood strip was placed, yet.
That said, I won't really know until I get that wood strip off.
I have no idea what the sub-sponson strip is made of at this point. The build record indicates CS grade - spruce and ash.
Interestingly, the old town catalog page I have that shows a sqaure stern sponson model does not have the wood strips below the sponson. Never noticed that!

[Dan Miller]

My guess is that the canoe was recanvassed by someone who didn't do it the same way as was done at the factory. The keel was probably added when the sail rig was added.

[Douglas Ingram]

When you recanvas, if you choose to keep the sponsons, I'd offer that the method that I described above is a pretty effective method. I've only had to do sponsons on on Peterbough Autoboat, it went well, but the tight curves on that little boat were a chore to get the canvas to lay smooth. You shouldn't have the same problem.

[nmerrill]

Yea, I was thinking the same thing about the re-canvas job being a different method than factory. Actually, seems like decent method to me, but what do I know!
Here are a few more shots of the keel and bow.

I noticed that the Old Town catalog page with this model indicated that it was covered with #6 canvas... heavy!
Since this boat is not a paddler (even though that is its model name!) at 130+ lbs:eek:, seems like a lighter weight canvas wouldn't change that much. Any reason why I might want to go with lighter canvas? As far as I'm concerned, this is a trailer/sail, and maybe row, craft only.

[nmerrill]

Ok, so I made some progress, and most of the canvas is off the hull (see "autopsy" thread for details on that).
Things look pretty good, for the most part. I did discover some bad things at the bow stem...
All the tacks driven in for the canvas managed to spit the stem along its length. I can see through it! Is this common?
Not sure what I'm going to do about it yet and suggestions are welcome! Basically, I have three options as I see it.
1) Leave it and hope there is enough wood to hold the canvas on again.
2) fill the crack with something- putty, epoxy, etc. and leave it. Obviously, the filler needs to be soft enough to tack into, but bond well enough to the wood to make a difference.
3)replace the stem. Removing the planking from the stem seems like a recipe for breaking things (planks), but I have not looked at how well they are attached closely.

Thoughts?

[nmerrill]

Ok, so no thoughts on the split stem.
Next question...
Can anyone confirm that these floor boards are not factory issue (see picture) - they don't look like anything I have seen in pictures.
Off to pull them off and start cleaning the interior...
I think I will re-install them even if they are not original, though they must add a bit of weight!

Nat

[Benson Gray]

Those don't look like any Old Town floor rack that I have ever seen before. A floor rack with half ribs is a bit redundant. My vote would be to replace the stem.

Benson

[Blue Viking]

When I helped my friend strip his 49 OT square stern he found that "split" like you described..He scarfed in a section that needed to be replaced...but as Mr Benson suggests, if its that bad, nothing you do is gonna keep those tacks in and it should be replaced. there is that double tacking and then either an outer stem or stem band to consider......better now than after you have had and OOPS!;) Looks like somone wanted to keep their "dunage" dry at all costs with those "boards":)

[Fitz]

Hard to say from the photos, but those tacks are ENORMOUS. That is why the stem split. Tiny 3/8's in. tacks are typical.

2 Cents:

I typically fill the normal tack holes with a little epoxy thickened with wood flour, but it looks to me like you should consider replacing the stem. The planks are fastened to the stem with steel nails. You might slip a hacksaw blade between the stem and the planking and cut the nails freeing the old stem. Less chance of damaging the planking.

[nmerrill]

Thanks for the replies y'all.
I figured most would recommend replacing a section of the stem...but I asked anyway...

Fitz,
Thanks for the hack saw tip. Already had to use that one to get the keel off since the last 4 bolts were steel (rest were long brass screws and bolts) and were too rusted to unscrew.

I had doubts that the floor rack was original due to a few details of the construction and installation. Thanks for confirming that.

Is it true that boats with half ribs don't get floor racks, in general?
I'll have to consider leaving them out since they must weigh 20 lbs alone! Not to mention the pound of brass holding them down!

Ok, now to commence stripping (the boat I mean)!

[Blue Viking]

I have seen small strip floor racks held in place with a piece of the brass stem as the hold down clip....I suppose and add on to an original restoration to help keep you gear somewhat dry would be ok...they are light and cane be removed easily for wash down and clean outs..Soooo....start stripping!...the canoe that is...;)

[nmerrill]

Ok, so after removing a hundred screws, and another hundred nails, I finally managed to remove the center plank of the floor "rack". And that was when I found out why this boat had that particular floor, held on in that particular way...
The horror
:eek: :( :mad:

So, I guess I don't need to question if I'm going to do a "restoration", or a "re-build". No way I've got the time to fix all that "right"

Oh well, who knew?
And I thought I was all set once the little bits of bondo I found came right out!

[Denis M. Kallery]

Just think how good you will be at removing ribs and planking and steam bending and replacing ribs and planking when you are done! Bumme, but it can be done! Good luck!! Denis

[Dan Miller]

I finally managed to remove the center plank of the floor "rack". And that was when I found out why this boat had that particular floor, held on in that particular way...

Ummmm. Just in case you didn't know, the Old Town square end canoes are supposed to have a keelson. They have a v-section hull, the keelson essentially defines the shape of the bottom, and the ribs are put on in halves... too late now, but probably would have been best to have left the keelson in. Shouldn't be too hard to put back after you've cleaned up. Set it in place and brace it lightly from the thwarts. Turn it over and remove the garboards. Nail the ribs back down to the keelson, then re-install the garboards. Piece of cake!

[Denis M. Kallery]

Well that is why Dan is a expert and I am not - but hey we're learning.:o
Denis

[nmerrill]

Wow, wait a minute! Dan, do you mean that this boat was built with ribs with a seam in the middle??
That would be a great revelation to me! I figured this was repair work!
Not all of them are - mixed in along the bottom, some of them are one piece- in no particular order.
Which part are you refering to as the Keelson?
Earlier in the thead, I showed pictures of the keel, which no one thought was original.
And no one thought that the planks on the floor were original either (see eariler pictures).
The center plank I removed was held on with not-particularly-evenly placed brass screws, and a lot of rusty *steel* nails about 1 inch long. Not really what I thought was craftsman-ly work.
Anyway, please tell me more good news,
please! :confused:
Thanks!

[Blue Viking]

Just had to throw in another couple of pennies worth on this subject.:) I have restored a Sebago Lake wood and canvas boat and they were constructed similar to the Old Town Square sterns, which I helped my friend just redo!....Two piece ribs held in place with the keelson and the those short spacer ribs (half ribs) and the keelson is held in place with screws to the keel. hardest part of that is lining up the keel to attach it after you have re-canvassed and filled it...Not rocket science!....patience is the answer!....
But then, my saying is: No canoe can ever be a true restoration unless someone has figured a way to use the same piece of canvas!...If I was rebuilding for my own use, then some small alterations from original that would make it more attractive to my eye, then I would do it. If it was to restore for someone else, then attention to detail is a must...But then, I am not in this to make a living.
"its not how many strokes of the paddle it takes to get there, rather it is the Joy that is in the journey"
PS!....I found that both were in a very fragile state with the keel and keelson removed..but canvassing went well and brought the rigidity back, filled, and Then re-attached the keel and keelson. Planking and clinched nails held them both to shape, and used the upside down method to re-canvas with 3 stands...Good luck Why not strip it now with all the interior stuff out?

[Dan Miller]

nmerrill, the keelson is the bit of wood that runs the length of the canoe on the inside bottom. The keel is on the outside. I have no doubt the keel itself was a replacement. The two "floorboards" on either side of the keelson were atypical, and probably later additions. It is also possible the keelson was replaced at some point, but I can't say for sure. I've attached some photos showing how the Square End canoes typically look. Sorry they are on the small side.

Steel fasteners are not all that uncommon in old canoes (not desirable from a restorer's standpoint, but common nonetheless). Wartime canoes especially have lots of steel, as the brass was diverted to the manufacture of munitions.

Blue, since the keelson is such an important structural part of these boats, I can't imagine not reinstalling the keelson prior to canvassing - how else do you fasten the ends of the ribs properly? The keelson holds the keel in place, not the other way round...

[Dan Miller]

But then, my saying is: No canoe can ever be a true restoration unless someone has figured a way to use the same piece of canvas!...

That would be 'preservation', not necessarily 'restoration'.

[Blue Viking]

Ooops! Stand corrcted Dan.....I did attach the keelson on both prior to canvasing!................Like that term "PRESERVATION".....kinda describes me preserved but not pickled:D

[nmerrill]

Thanks for the further info Dan, and I hope I can extract some more form the list.
BTW, I removed the "keelson" because I have a few cracked ribs that need replacement, and I assumed that the ribs were one piece.
Would you typically replace half ribs without removing the keelson?

A few more questions then.
Many of the half ribs are two pieces also - would this be expected? Seems like a weak design!

Might the ribs (and half ribs) that are not 2 pieces be replacements?

This boat hardly appears to be a V-section Hull... it is actually rather flat from mid section to stern, and that is not because the keel and keelson were removed.
Pictures 1 and 2 are the best views I have handy to illustrate that. Also, back on page 2 is the long shot of the floor rack which also sort of shows how flat it is. Very different look than those that you posted.
Could this be a result of attaching a much wider - and flat - keelson which flattened the hull over the years? Or even storage position?
Actually, The Old town catalog page I have indicates that the Square end paddleing canoe "Shape and general dimensions follow the regular 20 ft Guides Special except the legnths are shorter..."
Was the Guides special a V-section hull?
Thanks again!

[nmerrill]

Withdrawal symptoms were getting serious!
I would really love some more input on this project - still not sure what I'm dealing with!
Anyone?

[Mike Heines]

I agree with Dan. When I took apart and recanvassed my 1905 old Town sponson a few years ago, the sponson were canvassed all the way around. It was like refurbishing one large canoe and two small ones...No keel, by the way. She turns very well under sail.

[nmerrill]

Mike, Was yours built like a v-hull with a keelson down the middle and two piece ribs? See my last post to this thread before the crash for specifics.
Anyone else have experience with an Old Town "paddling model" ?
Thanks!

[Michael Grace]

I'm finishing up an 18' square stern with sponsons right now, and though I didn't remove the keelson, many of the ribs are obviously in two pieces because the rib grain is radically different on each side of the hull's midline. This is clearly the way this boat was initially constructed- it has had no major repairs done on it in the past.

[Mike Heines]

My '05 Sponson has single, whole ribs. Probably the usual for the shorter lengths.

Mike