A new Kildonan canoe

[Douglas Ingram]

Thought that you all might be interested.

A client of mine has a favourite Kildonan canoe. Its a big boat, 17'6" length, 17" center depth, 39" beam. Strong V forward sections, nice clean waterlines and a lot faster than the specs would have you believe. Carries a LOT of stuff. Photos of the original can be seen on my website.

Kildonan was a local canoe building company (Winnipeg, Mb.)that essentially vanished without a trace. They were building as recently as the '70's. I have restored plenty of their canoes.

As this is a very good canoe for tripping in the manner that he and his wife appreciate, and in the interests of posterity, a new canoe was commisioined. After documenting the old one, accounting for assorted springback, a new mould as built. The ribs for this one were bent last Friday.

I'll keep you posted.

[Douglas Ingram]

Planking almost done in these photos. The canoe will be off the form today and closed in. By the way, sometimes you get luck with planking stock, the center 6 strips were all cut from the same, clear, 17' long piece of cedar!

[dboles]

Howdy Doug.
Nice canoe seems to be coming right along.With 17 inches for gear it should carry lots of gear,hows it handle in the wind?
Dan'l

[Douglas Ingram]

Thanks Dan,

Yes, it carries a LOT of gear. The clients have this thing worked out to an art. They like to travel close to freeze up and like to be comfortable, and safe!

If paddled empty, I expect that it would be a bear in any wind.

Got it off the mould yesterday, I'll be getting the decks in today and start closing it in. I have some interuptions in my work day today, so not too many hours available.

I'll try and get some other photos up, the original canoe, the documentation, etc.

[dboles]

Doug
Was watching the weather network seems your part of the country got smacked with a blizzard and the Trans Canada Highway was closed due to wind.Hope the shop has a good heating system.
How many models did Kildonan make.
What are you trimming it out with for decks and outers.
Travelling near freeze up or cold weather a person needs lots gear.My old Woods winter bag takes up a 100 litre pack no problem .Worth it sometimes to dodge the bugs,hard to dodge the cold though.
Dan'l

[Douglas Ingram]

Dan, no blizzard in my town. Cold, though!

Here are a few photos of the canoe loaded up, the tent set up, the section shapes being documented.

This canoe has a white cedar hull, Fir inwales, curly hard maple decks, and Birch trim. Paint will be Chestnut Green.

Kildonan made quite a few models. I have seen a 14', 16' day canoe and Prospector type, an 18' Y stern freighter, and some freighter bigger than that. I couldn't say that that is a complete list. Solidly built, well crafted, not fancy. They were in business in Winnipeg from at least the early 40's till the late 70's. Then they were all abducted by aliens and the memories of all concerned were wiped clean and all documents were tracked down and destroyed.

At least, that's the end result.

[Douglas Ingram]

A few more shots of work done this afternoon.

Man, is that mould heavy and hard to move!!!

[Giiwedin]

Doug - Loaded up is right. I've been across the Arctic with canoes hauling less. May your portages be few and short!

How much does the 17.5', 17" deep canoe weigh empty?

[Douglas Ingram]

Rob,

Most of what they haul is just bulky rather than heavy.

I think that the original is about 100 lbs. Not an impossible carry, but he's not getting any younger. One of the goals in this canoe is to take off more than a couple of pounds. I'm crossing my fingers on that one.

Should have the hull clenched checked today and mostly closed up. Depends upon on much time I get on it.

Stay tuned for updates.

[Giiwedin]

100 pounds is no slouch. I suffered through a Quetico trip this summer that involved about 25 up-and-down portages, many with bad rocky footing. I paddled an old 17' Prospector, made with #6 canvas and close ribbing for one of the trips in my salad days, that weighed that or more. Carrying it on the flat and level was bad enough. Over the hill and streambed portages it felt like a 1000 lbs.

I'm not getting any younger either, so I'm after a good sturdy working canoe that can carry enough gear for a three-week trip and still weigh in a 70 lbs or less. Rollin Thurlow is building a deepened 17.5' Atkinson Traveler right now with that objective. Here's hoping he makes it.

[Douglas Ingram]

Update.

Lots of interruptions recently.

I'm in the middle of varnishing now. Canvasing right after. All the thwarts are made, seats are still left.

The weight objective should be met! The bare hull is about the same weight as the bare hull of a Chestnut Pal that I'm varnishing now. Canvas and trim will throw the weight up, but its starting out well. I need to get a scale out into the shop, I'd like to know... Feels like 35-40 lbs.

[Douglas Ingram]

Varnish finished and seat risers installed. Drilled the seats for handcaning. Ready to canvas.

[Douglas Ingram]

Update:

Canvassing complete and ready for filler as of last week. Progress has slowed due to a Chestnut infestation...

I also got the original Chestnut green matched pretty close. If anyone wants the formula I can post it.

[Douglas Ingram]

Forgot to add a detail of the seat arrangements. The seat will be hand caned using the Chestnut/Peterborough pattern, which was also used by Kildonan. Top pf the fram is 10" above the floor and the front rail is 2" wide and has a nice wide bevel on the leading edge. Makes it nice an comfy for the back of the legs.

[Dave Wermuth]

Why do you mount the seats on stringers? What are the pros/cons?
Great looking frame.

[Douglas Ingram]

Dave,

There are a number of reasons for the stringers:

-the old Kildonan had them.
-the canoe is very deep, 17" at the center. So to get the 10" seat height you'd need VERY long carriage bolts.
-it reduces the number of holes in the gunnels helping them to retain their full strength.
-they aid in bracing the canoe, much like a thwart.
-seat position is more adjustable.

In this canoe, the primary reason is the combination of canoe depth at the seating position and the required seat height.

Cons would be:
-somewhat more complicated installation, though not that much more.
-the stringer remains in place if you have to sand and varnish.

[Dave Wermuth]

I had considered this thing before. I have seen a few canoes with broken rails and it is always at the center thwart. Seemed like a weak spot. A stringer let's you adjust fore/aft or above/below the stringer. One screw at each rib I suppose. If I am building my own canoe then it is a reasonable way to do it. I am guessing it may be necesary to put a little pre bend in the stringer perhaps. Pity I have the dacron and filler already on my new 18' Penn Yan -ish canoe.
Thanks.

[Douglas Ingram]

Dave,

Using seat risers won't make any difference to the center thwart position, they're in the wrong place for that. Overall, I think that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Making the riser isn't any more work than making a nice spacer block for hanging the seat. You do need to shape it to the inside curve of the hull so as not to distort it. Take a pattern and shape it rather than trying to bend it. Its only a couple of mm off of each end.

The easiest way I've so far found to line everything up to install is to take a piece of foam and trim it down, bit by bit, to fit the space where you want the seat. Go slowly so you don't make it too small too fast. Fit it so that it sits snugly inside the hull so that the risers can sit on top of it, and the seat on top of them, so that the seat is exactly where you want it to end up.

You now have an exact plane where the bottom of the risers are located. You can establish the top limit of the risers by setting a strip of masking tape overtop of them. From this you can drill a hole exactly centered on each rib. Do this from the inside of the canoe so you can line everything up right. You DON'T want your screw holes missing the riser. At least I don't.

If the ribs are wide enough, you can double up the screws, but generally one per rib is plenty. I like to have the riser run past the limit of the seat to provide extra support, especially at the front where the mass of the paddler will be concetrated. Use a screw washer, like you'd use for a keel, to provide extra hold for the screw.

Oh, and use a hardwood for the risers, something with very good screw holding propertied. Saving weigh by using a softwood isn't worth the future grief. Go ahead, ask me how I know!

Got the filler applied yesterday, Ill try and post a photo later today.

[Douglas Ingram]

OK, so I ran out of time yesterday to post this. It as a long day.

I've been using enamel of the same colour as the finish paint as binder fo my filler mix. It minimizes the evidence of scratches.

I'll be ready to install the gunnels shortly. I always find that that's when it really starts to look like a new canoe!

By the way, my only interest in documenting this canoe is to show the new Kildonan being built for anyone interested in following along. Judging by the number of views, it seems to be of interest. I'm not doing this for self promotion.

[peterng]

Doug,

Don't be shy, post away. I make a point of checking in on your progress every day. Wicked project you've got going on there.

Nicely done.
Pete

[pklonowski]

Hi Doug,

You're giving away too much good info for this to qualify as self-promotion. It's great reading, especially for those of us waiting to start new boat projects, with little experience to draw on. Post Away, I say!

[Scot T]

Keep up the posts Douglas and don't worry about self promotion. If you don't promote yourself, who else is going to??

Anyways, I for one am learning a lot. I have a Greenwood canoe (West coast builder who followed in the style of Old Town and the rest of the Maine gang) that has a very simular seat set up to your Kildonan. After I get it back in floating condition (it suffered a fair bit of damage in a wind storm before I got it) I'm thinking of building a new one from this. The description concerning the seat placement is very helpful. Thanks for sharing.

[Douglas Ingram]

OK, in keeping up the posts for general interest:

The filler is curing quickly. I've got the outer gunnels ready to install, maybe start tomorrow. The seats are being caned now.

Thought you'd all like to know what I've been doing while I've been waiting. I've got a Chestnut Pal varnished, canvassed, and filled. I've also got another Red Fox of the form, closing that one up today. That's why I'm not installing gunnels.

A detail of the seats shows a 1/4" drill bit with the contersink. I find that hand cane really needs a slightly larger hole to ease all those strands through. Actually, its the last binder strands that need it. Also, the slight bevel to the holes made by the countersink reduces the "cutting" potential of the hole corners. I do the back of the hole as well.

[Douglas Ingram]

OK, finally getting the gunnels on! The filler has set up very nicely and won't take much to get a smooth finish. I tried something on the Chestnut that I'll do again on this canoe: I mixed microrballoons, like you'd use in epoxy, into the enamel base coats. It builds well, sands easily, and prepares a very nice base for the final paint.

I always love it when you trim the canvas down for the gunnel installation. NOW it starts looking clean and canoe-esque.

As you can see, lots of clamps are a treat. I've been adding to my collection over the years.

There's a fair bit of rise to the sheer at the ends. I steam this bend into the inner gunnels, but not always to the outer ones. They usually take the bend pretty easy, but on some canoes like this one, need some encouragement. At the focus of the bend, I clamp a piece of wood over the gunnels and another one to the deck. I pour boiling water over the gunnel to relax it, then using a pipe clamp I start coaxing it up to its final resting place.

Screws are standard #8 x 1.2" Brass set on every other rib. They are Robertson drive. I won't use anything else-slot drive screws are an abomination.

Seat caneing is almost done. I do that in the evenings while watching TV. After the main grid strands are in, one or two strands per night is easy and it adds up pretty quick. I use the pattern that Peterborough and Chestnut used. Kildonan also used it, but weren't as tidy in weaving it. Lay out the gird strands weaving a double strand, then the diagonals with each intersection either above or below the grid. The result is a combination of squares and X's. I prefer this pattern over the pinwheel pattern.

The cane is natural strand. I've found the best way to soften them is to soak them about 1/2 hour in the morning, then put the damp strands into a ziploc bag till later in the day. They can stay in thebag quite awhile. Then they are nice and supple as the moisture goes all the way in. Just soaking them 1/2 hour and they dry out too quickly. OK for the grid strands but the diagonals take longer and need to be more supple. Leaving them soak longer and they start to go grey, getting pretty dark if left very long in the water.

[Dave Wermuth]

thanks for posting this. i have found it very helpful.
do not be alarmed if you get a nasty letter from the society for the preservation of the slotted screw, they're a cranky bunch but they quickly forget because their mind slips just like the screws.

[Douglas Ingram]

I'm ready for them Dave. Bring 'em on!

Finished installing the gunnels, sanded them and varnished first coat. Got the first coat of paint on today.

I wish that I didn't have to divide attentions between so many projects simultaneously... Got the second coat of varnish on the Fox, and I thought that I had the last coat of paint on the Chestnut Pal. Most people would say that it was pretty good, I'll have to decide Monday. I'm running out of room for all these canoes. Its tough to varnish when you need to make dust!

[Louis Michaud]

Douglas, would you mind giving the mixing quantities? I would like to try this out: " I mixed microrballoons...into the enamel base coats. It builds well, sands easily, and prepares a very nice base for the final paint"

Best,

Louis Michaud

[Douglas Ingram]

Louis,

I'm still experimenting with the quantities, but I've been mixing about 3/4 - 1 full plastic beer cup of microballoons into 1 liter of paint. I don't dilute it. Mix it VERYwell.

Bon chance.

I'll be sanding the Kildonan and gettin the first finish coat and stem bands on today. Tomorrow I'll get the final coat on.

BTW, my client has recalled that the company designation for this canoe model is: "Timber Cruiser". That's what it will remain until anyone proves different!

[Louis Michaud]

Thanks!

A 17'6" x 39" x 17" Timber Cruiser is a long way from the sleek Chestnut Cruisers... Just what kind of timbers do you have out there ???

[Douglas Ingram]

A Timber Cruiser a like a prospector for trees instead of minerals. They'd go up into the bush with a lot of gear and survey the forsets for the lumber companies. Who knows how long they'd be out?!

This canoe is big, but its also going to be very fast, you should see the entry lines. It has flare in the top sides, so its waterline is no more than 36". This canoe is no pig!

[Dan Lindberg]

Doug,
Thanks for the build record, looks like a nice project.

Robert,
Check out Alex Comb's offerings, he is pretty aggressive on weight.

Dan

[Douglas Ingram]

Hey everybody.

Finished turning in the last screw at 9:35 last night. Rest assured that I didn't work all day and night to finish it. A few hours in the morning, and then took the rest of the day to spend with my wife and kids on the last day of spring break. Took last Wednesday off, too, same reason. Made up for it by working crazy hours the rest of the time.

So this is how the Kildonan turned out. Birch trim, curly maple decks, Chetnut green, painted over stem bands to keep with the tradition, brass gunnel tip protector plates, hand caned seats with bevelled front, center thwart shaped for lashing paddles for portaging.

New owners picked her up this morning and have reported a finished weight of 77.5 lbs. Not bad for such a big boat.

Oh, and I got the Chestnut Pal done and she left this morning too. I finally have a little space in the shop. Won't last long...

Now I have to finish Robert's paddle!

[pklonowski]

Looks nice, Doug! Thank you for the progress reports & pics!

[Denis M. Kallery]

Doug,
Niiiice [that's a drawn out nice to indicate great appreciation]! I lmay use some of your ideas, like countersinking the seats for caning.
Denis

[Scot T]

Beautiful Douglas. That is a very nice looking boat and thanks for the play by play in building it. I really appreciate you taking the time.

Very nice touch with the curly maple decks. I use a lot of that stuff (and quilted maple) in the guitars I build. I have a nice chunk of quilted that is too small for even my smallest model so why not make use of it in the next canoe I build? Thanks for the idea.

[Douglas Ingram]

Thanks everyone. I'll post some photos of the canoe launched once I receive some from the new owners. That should complete the thread.

Scott, I build guitars, too. Sometimes it distracts me greatly from the canoe building. I'm into classicals and Selmers.

[Dan Lindberg]

Doug,

Thanks for posting this record of your work, very nice.

A couple questions/comments for you,

You mixed mico-balloons in the paint, did you have any problem with them floats in the paint? I tried them in filler and couldn't keep them "down", ended up using cab-o-sil instead.

And it seems odd to see the words "very fast" and 36" waterline together. On a canoe 17.5 ft long, that seems very wide. The fast designs usually are in the 32-34" range for 17-18.5 canoes. On a large strip tripper I'm making, I pushed it out to 34" and that's with a 18'1" waterline length, 18'7" OL length, and I don't expect this to be fast.

Dan

"This canoe is big, but its also going to be very fast, you should see the entry lines. It has flare in the top sides, so its waterline is no more than 36". This canoe is no pig!"

[Douglas Ingram]

Dan,

I only mixed microballoons in the first, and sometimes second base coat. I use one of those mixer attachments for the drill. After a bit of mixing in by hand, I go at it with the mixer to ensure tha everything is well mixed. It should apply like any paint, albeit a slightly thicker paint. It does flow out pretty well, better thanI expected.

I should have been clearer, perhaps, about describing how fast the canoe will be.

It won't be a very fast canoe compared to one whose only intention is to go fast. It will be fast for a high volume tripping canoe, and it will be faster than its dimensions would seem to indicate.

[Dan Lindberg]

A nice looking canoe, looking forward to seeing launch pics and hearing the owners feedback.

[Louis Michaud]

Doug, here is some info on Kildonan Canoe Co. I got from the Canadian Trade-Marks Database. Hope it can give you a few leads to follow in Winnipeg.

Trade-mark: Kildonan Canoe Co.

Wares: Marine runabouts, boats, canoes, launches and the parts, components and fittings of the foregoing.

Claims: Used in Canada since at least as early as 1965.

Filed: 1968-11-07
Registered: 1970-10-09
Expunged-Failure to renew: 1985-12-31

Registrant: The George D. Simpson Manufacturing Company (1965) Limited
530 Sheppard Street, Winnipeg.

Representative for Service: Buchwald Asper Gallagher Henteleff, Commodity Exchange Tower, 2500-360 Main Street, Winnipeg Manitoba R3C 4H6

[Douglas Ingram]

Thanks Louis,

A little more than I already know in some areas, and not in others. I will follow up on the representatives part, as I know one of them.