builders insurance

[john hupfield]

Has anyone got a solution to the extreme hig cost of business liability insurance?I'm required as a morgagee.No real choice unless I'm invisible.
Commercial Liability Insurance has left most small business compromised or uninsured.
Would a Co-op work?
John

[MikeCav]

Others who are more closely involved can probably advise, but I think the Wooden Canoe Builders Guild was established for this type of thing. I dont know how active they are; in terms of forum activity, WCHA is far and away the more productive organization.

http://www.wcbguild.com/index.html

[Pam Wedd]

HI John and Mike
The Wooden Canoe Builders Guild is still in its infancy and working at growing. Besides being a meeting place for canoe builders to share ideas, it was also set up as a place to buy materials cooperatively, as well as to advertize coooperatively. One of our agenda items has been to look at the feasibility of group insurance. To this date, unfotrunately we haven't been successful .
I, like John have been unable to renew my insurance. After taking my money for 16 years, the insurance company has decided I'm a bad risk. And there seems to be a growing number of us out there. For me, I am not as worried about liability insurance as building insurance. I,m not worth anything to sue anyway!!!
Now that I have been without it for 6 months I have kind of gotten used to it and can sleep at nights again. In fact, it sometimes seems like this whole insurance thing is just another way of keeping us living in fear all the time.
Pam
Bearwood CAnoes,
Parry Sound ON CAN

[Larry Bowers]

hi,
I have the same problem as Pam metioned and also told what a bad risk I would be. I fell into the home based shop category with the other non insurables.

(woodworkers,welders,mechanics)

I have spent many hours researching, talking to brokers and agents. I have to admit after you talk to enough different people in a industry (insurance) you realize how they all sound the same.

I eventually gave up I was just spending to much time and energy looking and waiting for calls backs that never came. I was told that the best way to insure my business would be to insure our property and business as a commercial policy and then to carry seperate insurance for personal items. Totally in reverse of what we had been used to. It was going to be a very very expensive way to do things.

Like i said I gave up and also felt that having to build 2 or 3 canoes just to pay for insurance would be insane. I also feel as Pam does about not having the coverage. After you are denied it and dont have it what else can you do but learn to live with out it. :)

[john hupfield]

Though I agree that ignoring the problem is a fascinating concept,I'm having some problem convincing my Broker that it's not an issue.
I'm wondering if I incorperate or delist myself as a builder and just say I'm a woodworker or boat refinisher if that may change things.
I was hoping someone would have a reasonable insurance company.Not building the Titanic here.
Thanks guys(and ladys) for the feedback.
Keep me informed on the Builders Guild.
John

[Dan Lindberg]

Guys and Pam,

Just curious, what make you folks a high risk, that you're a small business, or a wood worker or that the product is a small boat or??

Dan

[Larry Bowers]

Hi Dan,
I asked that same question to the brokers. The answer is yes to all of the above, watercraft, small business and woodworker. In John's other post about delisting,, i asked the same sort of question. If I was just a home woodworker with the same tools doing odd things ,, no questions asked everything is okay. (I am not putting down the do it yourself or hobbist) I was one of those guys at one time too. :) As soon as you hang out your shingle everything changes.

I did talk to another boat builder in town who had the same problem. He got insurance after his broker seen his new sign by the road. He got new insurance through a Menonite co-op in Ontario. I had not looked into , but he said the one catch was that you attend there church. :confused:

[john hupfield]

Seems to be related to manufacture of Watercraft.
John

[Paul Miller]

One of the options small business operators use to limit business liability is to form an LLC or Corp. It does not really cost all that much, but there is a good deal of on going paper work.

The home based business if very difficult to insure, as someone mentioned. If you have a separate business location, you add liability to your property coverage. That liability coverage protects you against business activities except for Products(like is someone falls in your shop or our shop burns down and takes the build next to you with it).

The subject of Product Liability is completely separate and people would be surprised how many business do not have it.

Merry Christmas,

Paul

[Mark Reuten]

A cautionary tale folks: I'm in the same boat as Pam and Larry. After my Insurance being canceled, I eventualy gave up looking for a new outfit and as with everybody else, soon said the hell with it. Not long after I moved out of my commercial space (which would have required said insurance to re-lease anyway) and moved to a home based shop. I discovered some time later that my home insurer requires notification of home based business activities or the insurance is void. I dutifully informed them of said activities to which they replied "Cease all operations untill you have full commercial coverage including product liability." They went on to say that they were not interested to provide a policy to such a high risk activity.
I've since found a few outfits that will provide that coverage but the lowest was still $3500. Not a huge sum but a big chunk to give away when you build small boats for a living.
I've stopped doing boatwork for the time being while I renovate my house but I'm eventually going to have to bite the bullet it seems.
All you home businesses better check your home policies or it may come back to bite you if you ever have to collect.

[john hupfield]

Mark,I tried to communicate direct through you website email address but it bounced.
You summarized my problem and I Do Not look foreward to a cease and desist order.
Any leads would be useful.You could contact me through this forum or through my email link at lostinthewoods.ca (my website).
Much Thanks,John

[Dale Case]

Hi Folks, We're having the same problems getting coverage...after contacting at least ten different companies, we'd given up trying to get insurance for our shop.Sure would appreciate being kept current with regard to purchasing insurance ...at a reasonable cost. Might benefit all of us to keep our discussion on this board... or if not...please use the link on our website www. benttreecanoe.com to e-mail.Thanks, Dale & Lynne.

[davelanthier]

I consider myself a hobbiest but where do the insurance companys draw the line ? My shop is full of wooden canoes in various stages . Being retired and morgage free I have to wonder about those that have a morgage and no insurance . I would have thought that to have a morgage you would also have to have insurance .

[Larry Bowers]

Hi Dave,
I asked my agent the same question where the line was drawn. They told me that if you were doing it as a hobby and it was part of your lifestyle no problem. As soon as you hang out a sign or become a registered business then thats how they view you and everything changes. As far as I know you are required to have mortage insurance.

[Mark Reuten]

The mortgage/insurance bind is exactly what I'm in. I'm not sure why it's dangerous for a customer to drop of thier canoe or come visit it while it's being fixed but I can throw a BBQ with flaming appliances, feed alcohol to friends and strangers and have kids running around with flaming marshmallows on sharp sticks and not be considerd a liability risk is beyond me.
Does anybody here have experience with starting a group policy?
I was on on one with the BC Crafts Assosiation but that's the policy that all the woodworkers got kicked off of.

[Mark Reuten]

I've just made an inquiry to an agent about creating a group policy.
We'll see what she has to say. I'll keep you posted.

[Larry Bowers]

Flaming Barbeques,,,alcohol, I want to go to one of mark's parties. I promise not to sue if i get a sharp stick coated with marshmallow in the eye,,,, :p

[john hupfield]

So Dale;Where's Halls Lake and are you coming to Marks party?
Seriously,we are all in the same canoe shop on this issue,and a number of us are trying to find accomadation.
I know Dick Persson is working on seeing what the CMMA can do for us.I believe some kind of group policy is the only way to go,but don't yet have all the answers.
This forum is working!
John

[davelanthier]

Is this insurance problem the same in Canada and the USA or are we Canucks getting the usual shaft ?

[Dale Case]

Another thought.... The wife, who is from Ohio, says we need a consumer advocate like Ralph Nader up here to help with issues like this.Anybody know one?? John; Hall's Lake is on Hwy.#35 about half way between Minden and Dorset. We'd love go to Mark's party...sit around the fire...pick a little guitar& mandolin...as long as the flaming sticks are kept away from the instruments & at least 50 ft. from Mark's shop!! All that aside... this IS a very serious issue ,and we're very concerned about not having insurance....in the mean time , I'm going to the shop to make some "ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK" signs ....for all the good that might do.....

[john hupfield]

Bottom line here is that most insurance companies are grouping us in with high risk boating.I wonder if you make skis you would be held accountable for tree smashing.
Best quote that I have from an agent"what if someone drowns".
If a company is interested in underwriting a policy for "artisans"or small boat builders and/or repair facilities based on actual risk rather than assumed incompetance and imbacillity then I am more than happy to sign on .
Beg pardon.Bring on the pointy sticks.
John

[Tim Hewitt]

You might try contacting naseweb.com, the National Association for the Self Employed - at least for US businesses.

A Group Policy will require several thousand members before it's cost effective. It's going to be in your best interest to join a group that already exists.

-t

[Pam Wedd]

I don't think any of us out here in the east want to go to Marks' party right now - those poor Vancouverites have hit -2 deg C !!!
Regarding Can vs US problem, I only know that when my insurance broker asked if I sold to the US, that was game over. Seems to be the sueing scare is most prominent problem here, not burning down shops. I would quite happily have no liability (like who would sue me when they can sue McDonalds over hot coffee), but I sure would like fire insurance.
Glen Fallis of Voyageur canoe near Peterborough ON, has been self insuring for 25 years - wish I had done that 15 years ago and I would have had at least a tiny nestegg.
I too think the group insurance thing might be the only way.
Me, I am looking into putting in a sprinkler system with the money I didn't pay to the insurance company. I might just be further ahead in the long run.
But those with mortgages are definitely stuck.

I think I will post a little note in the maintenance section of our forum referring people to this thread as I think lots of folks don't go beyond that area. Maybe we might find some US builders in the same pickle.
Pam

[Mark Reuten]

The US builders are definatly in the same boat. I know Redfish kayak pays out a montly sum that would make your jaw hit the floor and they just sell kits.
The few prices I got for liability insurance were very specific about not covering any product that went to the states. In a sense, we are being economicay frozen out of the US market by the insurance industry at least in terms of liability coverage. Fire and personal injury are another matter and that is where just being a woodworker is getting you.
We have two different insurance issues here but both have the same result. They both put us out of business one way or the other.
I deal with the fire and theft issue by keeping most of my hand tools in the house. I warn my customers that I have no insurance covering their boats and so far so good but I know it will eventually kill some business. I haven't touched any yachts lately because I'm worried about being on the hook. That's cutting into the only profitable business I do.
Pam, has the guild just not found a willing unsurer?

[Mark Reuten]

When I get the new shop going, your all invited to the party.
Weather permitting.

[Pam Wedd]

Thanks for the party invite Mark!
The Builder's Guild has been suffering from a small membership and would benefit greatly from having more bodies to help out and energize the organization. The initial idea was to have a place where builders could meet/get together (either physically or through the web), share ideas and problems, buy cooperatively in order to get better pricing, and hopefully do some group advertising and also group insurance.
We got off to a pretty good start, but ran into some growing pains as I am sure all new organizations do and lost some members. I think perhaps canoe builders tend to be pretty independent stubborn folks (you have to be to stay at this as a job!!) and working in a group may be harder for us than say for the "normal" employee who is used to it. Anyway, I still think the idea of a professional builders group is a good one, and maybe this insurance issue will help to bring us all together to finally work together. I know the WCHA is absolutely the best at promoting wooden canoes, and sharing of ideas to all, but there are times when, as a professional builder, I don't really want to spread to the whole world, if , let's say, my filler has been messing up big time. I'd ask for help from other builders in the guild, but wouldn't really want my potential buying public to know. I know there have been some who think it not necessary and that the wcha forum is enough, but perhaps they have never had filler meltdowns and not wanted the world to know!!! Lucky them!!

Anyway, if you want some info on the Wooden Canoe Builders' Guild contact Dave Alguire of Old Delta Canoes 613-928-2850 dalguire@cybertap.com

[Mark Reuten]

Thanks Pam,
I e-mailed Dave.
I understand your concern about airing dirty laundry so to speak. Only another builder would understand how something you've done successfuly a hundred times can suddenly screw up for no obvious reason, especially in the area of finishes.
Getting back on topic, no word from the insurance people on a group policy yet.

[davelanthier]

I had considered going pro , becoming a member of the builders guild , but gave up the idea due to the insurance problem . Point is you need enough new members to get the insurance but if I become a member I will lose the insurance I have .

[Mark Reuten]

Going pro can be a great way to rip the fun out of any activity. If you don't need to make a living from it, best to just go underground I think. Some would argue that it provides unfair competion to the pros but I feel that the best promotion for our industry is to have as many people out on the water in wooden boats as possible.

[Larry Bowers]

Mark is right about the going pro part,, it does have its nuances. Most of the time I really enjoy the work. The insurance thing is a concern. I am happy to say I just recently sent in my membership application to the guild. I,m so lonelyyyyyyyy all by myself on the island. :) Looking forward to it very much.

[yelnif]

I don"t know if this might be possible or not, but fyi. I had a construction co. in the 80's and could not afford ins. so I got a 1 million $ liability policy for @ $1000. now I never had to file any claims so I don't know if they would have paid or not but my accountant at the time assured me I was covered no matter what. This may be something worth asking your respective ins. agents @. keep us posted-lee...

[Larry Bowers]

hi,
I just wanted to let everyone know some of my results. I have recently been in contact with the cooperators insurance company here in Canada. They have a basic home based business policy and so far it looks like they will be able to offer coverage for canoe builders. I will have to fill out the reem of paperwork and they will send it off for approval and rates. Like I said it looks very promising so far. I will post more information as I get it.

[john hupfield]

First news in a long time Larry.We have a Co-Operators around here somewhere.Should I try applying?With my luck I could jepordize your application.I'm waiting to hear back from my next to last insurance corperation.
John

[yelnif]

me again, another brain storm (wife call them farts :confused: ) has anyone of you fellas in the N.E.(cold ne.) checked with other small boat builders- shoot, any other watercraft builders to see what they were doing about insurance? I would figure that between them and us we might all benefit- that could be a bunch of people especially if you include our northern bretheren. and sisteren-Pam. It also makes a difference if you have employees or not. see ya.lee... ;)

[Douglas Ingram]

This thread is very, let me repeat, VERY interesting and timely for me.

Insurance is a huge bugaboo for me. I'm not worried about my clients being stupid and having accidents. Its not the rank beginners, but experienced paddlers who are attracted to wooden canoes. I'm not worried about theft, really, by the time that I've paid my premiums for 3-4 years, I can replace all my portable tools with brand new ones! Its the total loss from fire and the implications of not having business insurance has on my homeowners policy that scares me, and my wife! Oh, and did you know that they just do not want to insure a wood frame building if used for woodworking!!! so maybe I need a butt ugly, and expensive, steel contraption in my yard.

Party at Mark's place! Yeah! If that's too far for Pam an other out East, we can meet in the middle at mine. I an't scared of no flaming marshmellows!

[john hupfield]

A quick reply.
I just signed at $2000.00 canadian for liability and "Shiprepairer"liability which covers clients boats at the shop and liability for the 6 months following.
Their main concern seems to be theft.
I didn't get fire insurance.Same problem.Wood bult woodworking shop.
John

[Douglas Ingram]

WOW! I hope that you put through enough work to cover that cost. And still no fire coverage when you pay that much?

[john hupfield]

Hey Doug,Didn't try for fire.I'd self insure but that wasn't an option.Either pay down the mortgage(dropping all insurance)or close the shop.Fortunatly,or unfortunatly,as the case may be I had too many commitments to compromise.
Where's Lorrette?
John

[Douglas Ingram]

John,

Lorette is just 15 minutes outside of Winnipeg, and a three days drive from Paul Smith's.

[john hupfield]

Douglas,If you are going then give me a call.I'm south of Sudbury.
John

[Douglas Ingram]

John, I wish I had the kind of time that would allow me such sojourns. Alas, that is not my fate. Got out a couple of years ago, though! It will have to last me awhile. Its just SO far, and then you have to turn around and come back just as far...

[john hupfield]

Not this year,maybe next ,I propose closing the shop for the summer and taking le grand tour to all the shows and builders and missed opportunities that I can find or fit in.
John