Pa's Guide Project

[Fitz]

Since there is so much interest in Guides and Stripping, I thought I would post a couple of progress photos. I'm "rejuvenating" my Dad's 18 ft. 1943 Guide. It has lots of war time steel. At just about 70, his only comments were, "make it lighter".:D

I've finished stripping the old varnish out and now I've given the hull a good sanding. The hull came out nice and now I'll pull the canvas off, replace a section of plank in the bilge and get the varnish can out.

Due date is Father's Day....:eek:

Here are some before and after photos.

[greatlakes]

It looks great! I'm sure your dad will be very happy.

What stripping product did you use? I have a 60-year old W&C rowboat that will get the "treatment" this summer.

Frank

[Fitz]

The product is the methylene chloride based gel - probably Strip-EZ (one brand name). I do one quarter or third of the canoe at a time and it usually takes three passes. I think I used 3 gallons on that canoe. I find it is best to allow enough time to do each pass consecutively so that the finish stays wet with the goop. Finish up gently with a fine paint stripping brillo like pad. Then I sanded the whole canoe with 100 grit. I'll go over it with 220 before varnish.

[peter osberg]

If you weigh the canvas after you strip it, you will get an idea of where a lot of the weight of your canoe is. My 18ft chestnut slimmed down 49 lbs with dacron fabric instead of the old canvas cover that had rotted after 20 years; the canvas taliban and their imams will no doubt take exception to this notion. The canvas routine is probably cheaper, more people are familiar with it, it is more traditional, but heavier and less durable.

[Fitz]

The canvas on the boat now is 63 years old. That ain't bad for durability.

I haven't used dacron, so I can't really comment. I just worry about getting a "run" somewhere on the Allagash. :D

All kidding aside, I'll probably try it someday.

Cheers.

[Dan Lindberg]

Peter,

When you used the dacron, what filler did you use?

I plan to use it on several project upcoming, and am just finishing some test panels to try different configurations.

My main concern is how to be sure that the fabric/filler doesn't adhere to the planking. Any comments/observations from your project?

Also, based on some prices I see in the Aircraft supply catalog, the dacron maybe less expensive then the canvas.

Dan

[peter osberg]

I have tried several routines depending on how the canoe is used. I have used as many as 6 layers of 2.7 ounce heat shrinking fabric or only one layer on a "lake & dock only" 'for the sunset' canoe.
1. Optional; The routine of adhering one layer to the wood with polybush keeps the sand and gravel from sifting through for the big canoes that are being surf launched (shaking the sand and gravel off your feet is not an option when launching into surf)
2. use saran wrap as a cover to provide a barrier to adherance, (a tip from the aircraft guys), then apply the heat shrinking dacron layer, then paint with polybrush. (as per Stits aircraft manual)
3. apply another layer dacron (polytacked along edges) then squeegee on epoxy as a paint layer
.....this may be enough for a low abuse canoe, but for a high abuse bottom I have done additional layers of dacron on those areas affected by repeated grounding. The margins of overlap can be concealed with effort and the final fabric layer leaving the sides with a thinner cover than the bottom.
4. I believe that a layer of epoxy with graphite helps abrasion resistance and as a paint, it also functions also as a filler. Because the weave is finer you use much less filler.
5. I use a primer coat (interlux) and use it as a sanding coat often with a second coat
6. the colour coat(s)
The poly brush has incompatibly problems with most paints, but once the epoxy layer is on then.. no worries mate
despite the multiple steps I have found it saves 30-40% in weight over the commercial canvas product, and not much different in effort once you get used to ironing the fabric.
Now the taliban will be after me....

[Dan Lindberg]

Peter,

I hadn't even considered multiple layers, don't know why, that's how I build strippers. I may try a partial layer on the bottom.

Saran wrap the whole canoe....how does it look between the planking, and does/can it hold water? Have you had any experience putting it on over just oiled wood?

I may try the epoxy, I was going to try that on the canvas anyway.

When you refer to "polybrush" is that the dope the aircraft folks uses to "fill" the dacron or something else, and if so, which mix is it? (The early, can't remember what it's called, works well but has enviro problems, or late, which has performance limitations but is safer.)

I was going to follow the instructions that I got in a aircraft repair "book", which said to brush 1 layer of the early dope to seal the fabric, and 2 or more layers of the later dope to fill and make the surface smooth.

Dan

[Todd Bradshaw]

"Durability" is a rather broad term, but stating that Dacron is more durable than cotton canvas isn't true in many aspects. Cotton has higher abrasion resistance, higher U.V. resistance and much higher resistance to explosive tearing (one yarn breaks and they all break). There is certainly nothing wrong with using Dacron on a canoe to save weight, but claiming it to be tougher than cotton just isn't that simple and in many cases, isn't true.

[peter osberg]

The saran wrap is not visible, although if you look carefully you can see a shine through the planking at first, within a very short time dust/dirt/varnish conceals even that. It is not meant to be a waterproof layer.
The polybrush is a 'Stits" aircraft product and is a vinylizing paint-on coat that is waterproof.
the rapid deterioration of cotton fibre in relation to moisture and time (independant of UV exposure) is well known as are rates of UV deterioration, extensibility, breaking stength and when canvas sails start making a comeback.........

[Todd Bradshaw]

And if Dacron (which is simply DuPont's tradename for polyester) ever becomes the perfect fabric for anything, leisure suits should come back into style....
Don't get me wrong, Dacron is great stuff. I've been making a living using it for about 25 years on boats and on aircraft before that, but not knowing and respecting it's specific limitations is foolish, the same as it is with cotton, nylon, polypropylene or any other fabric - and such foolishness is often rewarded by failure.

The canoe industry has been using aircraft Dacron as an optional covering on wooden canoes for more than 35 years. It's earned a small chunk of the market in that time, which has stayed small primarily due to the nature of the material and it's earned reputation for limited durability. That's why the manufacturers who offer it as an option do so with a warning about keeping it away from anything sharp. For it's thickness and weight it's pretty darned tough stuff, but it's not going to boot cotton canvas out of the canoe market anytime soon, and rightfully so.

[Fitz]

Okay - you fellas debating the merits of various skins - START YOUR OWN THREAD:p .:D

Back on topic here. Pa's war time canoe build record suggests that Old Town used amber shellac under the varnish, presumably as a cheap war time sealer (?). I'm thinking I'm going to try this just to see how it turns out.

Anybody have any experience to share?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Shellac as a base coat for varnish is an old antique refinisher's trick for getting new wood to match old wood when doing repairs. I used it when I had to recane the seats on my Guide. Once I got the old cane out I decided to strip and sand some discoloration and a little bit of that black ash fungus stuff out of the wooden frames. Once that was done, they looked like new - which presented a bit of a problem on a 1972 boat with original varnish. So I put on a couple coats of shellac before revarnishing them and it matched the old finish pretty well.

Unlike trying to use stain, which soaks into and accentuates the grain in a sometimes obvious manner, the shellac works more like a colored glaze that just darkens and yellows the finish. The amount that it modifies the color depends upon how many coats you apply. It does dry quickly and you want even coverage for even color, so brush quickly, but carefully. Shellac has been an acceptable marine sealer coat for a long time, so it holds up pretty well, but when compared to regular diluted varnish as a base coat, I'm not sure you gain anything other than the golden color with it.

[peter osberg]

35 years ago my dad had stopped using the 16 ft chestnut prospector because he felt they were becoming too heavy for him, particularly after a few days of wet weather. Not knowing another way at that point in time, I bought him a ultra-light weight aluminum canoe (such heresy), which he used for another 15 years until he felt that his balance wasn't what it was. That was the part of the thread I meant to reply to.

[Dan Miller]

Shellac is truly Ma Nature's miracle bug poop. It is compatible with nearly every other type of finish, and can be used as an intermediate between two otherwise incompatible finishes. An added bonus, it is approved by the FDA.

If you go beyond the can, and get your shellac as flakes, you can get a variety of colors from blonde to dark amber that will assist in matching up your tones in the way Todd describes. Fresh shellac works better too. Use a 1 or 1-1/2 pound cut to help avoid brush marks. I think the canned shellac is a 3 pound cut.

From a historical perspective, Rushton also used shellac as an undercoat before varnishing.

[Andy Hutyera]

I am a great fan of shellac. It has a lot of wonderful properties not the least of which is that almost any other finish will adhere to it. When finishing furniture I usually use water soluble stain followed by a sealer coat of shellac followed by a wood filler or gel stain to tone. Finish coat can then be more shellac or any good varnish or laquer.

On canoes I believe most folks start with a thinned coat of varnish as a sealer. I've used shellac as a sealer and depending upon the color of shellac used, it usually deepens the color of the wood. The shellac dries quickly and would be a time saver as opposed to thinned varnish.

If the build record shows that this is what Old Town did, I wouldn't hesitate to follow suit. I've never had a problem using shellac under varnish. The only word of caution is to be sure to use FRESH shellac. The dummies who market the stuff don't put an exp. date on the label. Your best bet is to either buy the flakes and mix it yourself or buy from some place with a high turnover. Shellac that is over the hill is really nasty stuff. It never hardens properly and stays gummy.

Be sure to post some progress pics!

[Fitz]

Well, I stripped the old canvas off Pa's Guide tonight. Didn't she ever scream!!!:D The weight of the No. 8 filled and painted skin off the hoof is a approximately 24 lbs.

There really was very little rot, a few very small places along the rails otherwise in pretty decent shape for 64 years old.

[Fitz]

"My canoe has steel tacks. Will it fall apart?" This is a common question for folks with wartime built canoes with steel tacks, so I thought I would share my experience.

ARRRGgggghhhh!!:eek:

This is a 1943 Old Town. The majority of the tacks are steel, although I did find some brass tacks in the cant ribs in the ends of the canoe. There is some rust on the heads of the tacks and red oxidation stains the planking near the tack heads (see photo). The brass tacks are the ones at the end of the canoe in the photo with no red staining.

I had to pull some planking on this canoe and I found the tack pulling was much, much more difficult than typical brass tacks. None of the heads pulled off, and the tacks didn't break. I also risked pulling big chunks of rib out if I was not careful.

I don't have any concerns about the tacks on this canoe - solid as a wartime battleship. I doubt the canoe ever saw salt water though. It grew up on the Belgrade Lakes in western Maine as far as I know.

[Fitz]

Hey, I like this bug poop!

Pictures at 11.

:cool:

[Larry Meyer]

Interesting about the shellac. I amber shellacked the bottom of a prospector and love it that way. I recall reading R. M. Patterson's Dangerous River that he took shellac along although its purpose was never decribed. I wonder if he used it to seal or waterproof canvas tears. I recall no mention of ambroid glue, for example. How does it do under paint? I have a canvas tear I'm dealing with and I'm wondering if shellack over the tear, after its glued, and then painting over the shellac will work.

Uses of shellac would make a good FAQ, by the way.

[Fitz]

Here is the first coat.

Larry - I've have good luck with ambroid for patching.

Okay - joke's on me. How do I get the bug poop off my hands. :eek:

:D ;)

[Larry Meyer]

If I'm not mistaken, shellac is made from the shell of the lac beetle, which is found in India. It dissolves in denatured alcohol.

I refinished a piano once, which had been painted green over a finish which had gone black. I thought the finish was varnish, but when I went to wash off with water the varnish stripper, ended up with a gummy mess, so I concluded it was shellac. Amber shellac is different--though I don't know how--from the shellac commonly used on furniture.

[Dan Miller]

Shellac is made from an excretion of the female lac beetle, not from any of its parts (though parts may end up in shellac through processing - something to keep in mind if you are vegan...). The different forms of shellac - amber, orange, blonde, etc. are a result of different levels of refinement. Dewaxed shellac is better than waxy shellac for adhesion of top coats, especially water-based finishes.

Fitz, to clean up, just use alcohol. The cheap kind is fine, save your best sipping whiskey for assembly.... Denatured alcohol is the usual solvent, but you can use grain alcohol as well (many guitar builders do this).

Cheers,
Dan

[Blue Viking]

:) WOW!...Am I ever glad I read this post all the way through!...My friend and I are in the process of restoring an OT Laker square stern and by the description that has been posted..I now believe that there was shellac under the varnish on this one...This will give some insight on the stripping process now!.....Also, I have some great new plans on refinishing two more that I am doing on my own...16' OTCA and a "no-name 15' w/c boat...The stripper goes on this morning on the boat...Nasty stuff!...very potent commercial gel that I obtained under pain of execution by firing squad if I revealed the source;)

[Larry Meyer]

Thanks, Dan. I think it was a prior post of your's I was trying to dig out of the foggy recesses of my memory. I think you're a guitar guy, too. Somewhere--i think here and maybe from you--I learned about the hazards of silicon polishes for guitars and the alternative, Preservation Polish made by Stew-Mac. Got some of it and its great stuff: took grime off my 30 year old martin I didn't know was there.

Out of curiosity is the amber more waxy and the other stuff less? Whatever was on the piano was a real mess, gummy glue, when I hit it soap and water, but denatured alcohol cleaned it up neat as a pin.

[Fitz]

Well, I missed the Father's Day deadline. I'll blame it on the weather. It has done nothing but rain here for much of the last 2 months. 4 inches more are predicted for the weekend. Good thing water is good to paddle on.

I let the filler "dry" for seven weeks before it passed the fingernail and my sniff test.

I'm sanding, painting - repeat! - now and varnishing trim, so I will finish in the near future.

Update photos when conditions warrant :rolleyes:

[43Yankee]

Fitz - I have a question. Are you going to stay w/the steel stem bans or are you going to brass? If staying w/steel how do you refinish? Mine (1943 Yankee) are galvanized w/some rust near the screw holes. I'm glad to see that you didn't use bleach on the inside. I was leaning in that direction but decided that it would take away the vintage look. I was not willing to risk it. BTW 'Zip-Strip is a good stripper. Just keep it wet and the varnish just dissolves. I used a nylon brush to get at the remaining nooks and crannies and neutralized it w/water. Used CPES as a sealer before varnish. It darkened the wood up a little but not unlike your pics. I couldn't get rid of the floor rack shadow either! I'll post some pics later. Nice progress on the boat!

Dave.

[Fitz]

Yankee:

Stem bands - The stem bands on this canoe are the galvanized steel flat bands - no hollow on the backside. I was planning to use these bands, they are heavy duty, but as you say a little rusty. I was considering giving them a good sanding and painting them with silver rust-o-leum.

I had second thoughts the other day though. I'm putting a great deal of effort into the finish on this canoe and I was thinking brass would be a nice touch. I also wonder how flat I can get the steel to lay on the canvas seam, but I think I will try the steel and see how I like it.

No, I didn't bleach the interior. I did put on a couple of coats of amber shellac before varnish. Shellac was mentioned on the build record. I think the floor rack shadows are now somewhat less noticeable after the varnish, but the floor rack is going back in anyway, so it should be a non-issue.

Good luck with your project.

[Fitz]

Well, after a couple of coats of primer, the Guide is now Green. This is the first coat. It will likely get one or two more.

This boat was originally bright red, but Pa was due for a change.

[ebeeby]

That finish looks so smooth - did you spray it?

[Fitz]

Hi Eric:

No spray. Lots of hand sanding between coats, 2 coats of a high build primer, Kirby's with penetrol, and some thinner, rolled on and tipped off. It will get at least one more coat.

Now if I can only keep the skeeters and spider droppings off of it!!:mad:

[Dave Wermuth]

the Roxinator and I are discussing what to do about primer. It seems Pam uses primer and now Rox wants to too. What type of "high build' primer do you use? AND, i have not had any adhesion problems in the past. Is primer going to make adhesion better? Worse? or c). no different.
Thanks.

ps The Roxinator wants to use Mr. kirby's primer because that is the type of paint we use most all the time. Any thoughts ?

[Fitz]

I used Interlux Pre-Kote.

Well, I have confessed my problems with blisters in the past on the forum, but in all cases those boats had no primer that I know of (two were canoes painted by me and two were painted by others). I have used pre-kote on a boat that I finished for a friend last year. As far as I know, he hasn't put it in the water yet, never mind soaked it enough to run into the blister problem that I have encountered. So I don't know the results of this experiment. I did like the finish on that canoe, so I went with the Pre-Kote again.

I did sand the primer coats thoroughly, by hand.

I'm still experimenting. Your results may vary. I have not used Mr. Kirby's primer.

Plus if old Pa gets a case of the blisters, I'll be the first to hear about it!:eek:

[Fitz]

Well, first the Father's Day deadline passed, and then the 4th of July deadline passed, and then the August 3-G's of Fitzs North Woods Excursion deadline passed, but alas, maybe, just maybe, Pa will get his rehabbed 1943 Old Town Guide back for his 70th Birthday on September 1.

I still need a decal, and I was thinking about a little pinstriping, and the outwales need varnish, and the wartime steel stembands need to go on, but I just might make it.

If all goes as planned, I just might deliver this Old Town right back near its birthplace. It was delivered in 1943 to Farrington's Camp on Kezar Lake, Maine. Turns out we will be close by to Kezar upon delivery.

The canoe was Bright Red in 1943, but don't tell anyone. :p

The first photo is a "BEFORE" rehab shot.

[Ric Altfather]

Fitz,

That's what I like about this work...a little paint, then a little Heineken, a little paint, a little Heineken! Until, you see the runs the next day.

Nice work,

Ric

[Fitz]

Now you have gone and done it Ric! You have brought attention to my secret "Fairing Compound"! If things don't look just so, you just add a little of that to the mix. Also is my occasional secret filler ingredient.:rolleyes: :p

It doesn't work on keels though.

[smallboatshop]

And you probably ought to keep that rabbit away from your beer...

[Fitz]

Gaining. It still needs a little more varnish on the outwales, probably a final coat of paint and a racing stripe.

:D

I've been delayed with a bad case of carpenter ants in the 300 year old abode. Lord help me if they find the canoes :eek: .

[dboles]

:D Looking very nice Fitz.! Nice work as usual.
( Go back and edit your post to say " to be completed sometime near next Fathers day" you will then find yourself way ahead of schedule) You then will have ample time to take care of the ants

[Andre Cloutier]

Fitz - may I call you Fitz?
noticed in some old posts and on a woodenboat forum that you've got a 12' trapper. I'm about 9/10 away from picking one up, any chance you could post some photos (you know, for inspiration and what not..), maybe another thread in another area? Like to see what it looks like after canvas and refinishing, it'll be my winter project for a spring solo boat.
thanks much
Oh and any idea how it'll handle my cougar-like 255lbs?
Andre

[Fitz]

Well, I put a stripe on.

I think I'll call it done and launch it. If Sunday is a nice day in Maine, Pa and I will go for a spin. I hear the foliage is near peak too.

I've included a Before and After shot.

:D

I think the haze on the paint job is condensation. The temperature dropped like a rock tonight.

[Jim Wilson]

Very nice! Ya done good.

Jim

[Dave Wermuth]

Well done! this is a perfect time of year to paddle too.

[Fitz]

The Guide was successfully Re-launched.:D

[dboles]

Very nice work as per usual Fitz.
How'd your old Dad like his new canoe.

[Scot T]

Beautiful Fitz! I would think the smile on Dad's face makes the hard work you put in all the more worth it. Well done.

[Fitz]

Dad's happy with his "new" old boat. He could probably use a smaller canoe, but my mother likes the stability of the Guide. They will use it quite a bit in the spring fishing for lunkers.

They may get to use it a few more times before the lake gets hard.

Cheers.