There's 'glass, but how about underneath?

[bredlo]

Hey all,

First post here.

Bought a 1922 18' OTCA yesterday, and I'm really looking forward to restoring the outside. (I won't be touching the interior if I don't need to, as everything seems very solid and I love the dark patina the varnish has mellowed into.)

The exterior, on the other hand, definitely has a sloppy, drippy, lumpy bumpy layer of fiberglass on it, even a keel strip that was slopped on. Is there a way to tell if the canvas was left on underneath? I read on these forums before posting that it makes life a lot easier if there is canvas under there.

If someone could point me to a thread that shows how to begin this whole process, and particularly getting this stuff off the outside, I'd appreciate it. In the meantime, I ordered a copy of Mr. Stelmok's "Wood and Canvas Canoe". Perhaps that will give me most of the info I need to restore this puppy.

Happy paddling,
Brad

[Tom Heys]

Hey Brad, You could look from the inside between the planking. I think you'll find that a canoe with just glass will have some resin which has found its way through the glass and in between the planks. Alternatively, if the canvas is still there, you'll be likely to see the cotton fabric. Good luck, Tom

[bredlo]

Great idea, I'll take a peek - thanks. Fingers crossed...

[Tom Heys]

Brad, One other thing to consider: unless the glassing job was done just right (and it doesn't sound like this one was) it will probably come off the planking quite easily. I only have personal experience with one canoe, but I've seen this to be the case several times. The cedar apparently has a component which inhibits the bond with the resin. So, don't lose hope if you find no canvas.

[bredlo]

I think you're right. I just checked and didn't see any goo between the planks, but I did find three broken ribs along the side wall where it curves to the floor *boo hoo*.

I don't have time to tear into it right now anyways, but perhaps in the next few weeks I can get my hands dirty and figure out what I really have, as far as a to do list. I know there are 4"-6" of missing outwales at the ends, and no caning on the seats, but the concern of getting that 'glass off was my biggest worry. I did locate both brass outer stems, they fiberglassed right over them.

Thanks!
Brad

[Todd Bradshaw]

Since the stem bands are there, under the glass, the canvas probably is as well. If you have places where the outwales are missing you should be able to slip a knife down between the canvas and the planking along where the gunwale used to be. On the other hand, if the canvas was removed and the fiberglass put right on the planking, it would be a very thin layer that is glued tight to the planks. You could probably get a knife between the glass and wood, but it would be an obvious peeling process, not just slipping the blade in there. Glass on wood also has a fairly bright, crisp sound when you tap on it. Tapping on glass over old canvas on wood makes a much duller thump because the canvas layer deadens the sound.

[mark wismer]

Depending on the type of resin used; it may be already loosing it's grip. when we first obtained our Old Town therre was a section fo the floor that we covered w. a 24" square of fiberglass from a bondo kit. 30 years later I was able to pry it loose from the interior w/ a dull swiss army knife...A heat gun will help if the resin has a stronger bond...

[bredlo]

You're exactly right, Mark. Just went downstairs and started tugging at the edge of the fiberglass - while it looks like the canvas was gone before it was 'glassed, it's giving up awfully easy thus far. Probably pulled off 2 or 3 square feet already, and most of the back is pure white... no epoxy had even soaked through in many places.

The keel may be a different story, as it has a dedicated keel strip on it, and epoxy literally dripping down the sides. But so far, so good.

[bredlo]

Well, after spending just under two hours of noisy tugging and ripping, all my fiberglass is essentially gone, other than a bit on each end. It seems I may have lucked out.

Now I need to begin removing damaged planking and addressing several cracked ribs, perhaps 4.

http://static.flickr.com/51/119714227_88ae9f0b64_m.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/55/119714228_c3b8b85e0f_m.jpg

[Tom Heys]

Don't those Grummans make a great place to lean the real canoe?:D

[bredlo]

Even worse... Alumacrap-ft. ;)

I spent just the right amount on that one, too - t'was a freebie left in the woods.

[Dan Lindberg]

All this anti-aluminum talk. :)

I actually like my Grumman, for what it is.

Even though I have a fleet of W/C, some usable, some projects, the Grumman (our 1st canoe) still gets used a little each year, as it "lives" down on the shore at the lake, not chained up, not even tied up, just laying there.

Other then having to pound out a dent from a birch tree that fell on it, I literally haven't done anything to it in 15 years. Tough to beat that.

Dan

[Tom Heys]

OK, since we're all being honest here. I, too, own a Grumman. I like it for what it is. We still use it for our family camping trips. It carries a lot of gear; I don't have to worry about it getting beat up, or dashed upon the rocks; It sits right outside under the trees year round, no chains or locks! I haven't even had to un-dent it.;)

[LenLee]

And they're also great for filling with some water and soaking stems, ribs, and rails before you steam them...;)

[Todd Bradshaw]

It's funny....at this point aluminum canoes could almost be considered "classics". Nothing like wearing short shorts and sitting down on a aluminum seat on a hot, sunny day.... Reminds me of Boy Scout summer camp, many moons ago. The instructor had a lovely 16' Old Town Guide that we weren't even allowed to touch and we all paddled the fleet of Grummans. Moving around in the boats was somewhat like being stir-fried.

Bredlo, are you sure that's glass up against the wood? That green moldy-looking stuff in the photo looks a lot like old canvas.

Here is my favorite aluminum canoe. Designing a fancy junk-sail rig for it seemed like a rather crazy project at the time, but it came out pretty neat. The owner polishes the boat and it's just outrageous enough to be cool.

[Dave Osborn]

Brad,
looks like canvas to me. Was the glass over the top of the canvas or did someone do a crummy job of glassing, allowing it to separate freely from the hull?

[Michael Grace]

I was shocked and dismayed to find a whole array of motorized plastic bathtubs on display at the Mt. Dora (FL) Antique and Classic Boat Show just two weeks ago. Mt. Dora is the largest antique boat show and the kickoff event of the antique boat show season.

These “classic boats” on display came in an array of not-of-this-world colors- bright enough to catch your eye, but horrible enough to freeze the terrified expression on one’s face like the Medussa turns to stone anyone who dares look in her direction. Fins and other purposeless objects jutted out in every direction, threatening to maim the unlucky soul who ventured too close. It hit me like a ton of bricks that “antique and classic” no longer means only wood… soon we’ll be seeing plastic canoes at the Adirondack Museum and sparkly bass boats with locomotive-sized outboards at Clayton’s Antique Boat Museum. What a treat!

:( :mad: :confused: :eek: :( :mad: :confused: :eek: :( :mad:

[Dan Miller]

soon we’ll be seeing plastic canoes at the Adirondack Museum

Too late, Michael, there's been one (a 'glass Old Town Rushton) on display in the small craft building for a number of years.

[Rob Stevens]

All this anti-aluminum talk. :)
Other then having to pound out a dent from a birch tree that fell on it, I literally haven't done anything to it in 15 years. Tough to beat that.

Dan

You're not trying hard enough, Dan.
This photo was captioned, "Piney canoe", not "shiney canoe".

[bredlo]

Hi Todd, Dave,

I'm 99% sure this is fiberglass. It's stiff and tears in big thick strips like fiberglass, it scrapes and cuts my delicate, girlish hands when I grab it like fiberglass, and seems to be made of woven glass fibers, like.. you get the idea. ;)

Here's a closeup.

http://static.flickr.com/21/123417914_9505a836b3.jpg

Yes, Dave - it was done very poorly, and didn't put up much of a fight when I ripped it from the hull. It had been de-canvassed first.

[Todd Bradshaw]

You're right. It's not canvas - but I'm not sure it's fiberglass either (not that it matters much). The fact that it didn't turn clearer and the slightly fuzzy nature of the fibers looks like it might be one of the spun fibers (probably polyester, maybe polypropylene) like Dynel, Xynole, etc. In any case, it's good that it came off without a horrible battle and you're on the right track restoring it to canvas.

[bredlo]

Woo hoo! Yeah, there was no saving it, whatever it was. I suppose the main reason I figured fiberglass since I saw they laid a separate keel strip on, covered in gloopy stuff that looks like epoxy.

Either way, yeah - looking forward to the next step.
Thx for the input!

[Dan Lindberg]

Brad,
Congratulations on getting that skin (whatever it was) off. I wonder if it was epoxy resin or something else that it came off so easy.

Rob,
Ya, we see canoes like that every so often in the BW/Q when folks try to avoid the portages. Many of the outfitters have one like that in front of their place to discourage rapid running but every year or so somebody has to learn the hard way and buy a canoe. :)

Dan

[Benson Gray]

Too late, Michael, there's been one (a 'glass Old Town Rushton) on display in the small craft building for a number of years.

The museum was very helpful when Old Town came out with the Rushton model. The company wanted to contact Rushton's descendents to see if they had any concerns about calling this model the Rushton. The museum helped the factory contact some of Rushton's family and they did not object. The museum then asked if they could have the first Old Town Rushton built with serial number one for their old and new display. The company agreed to send them one of their Rushtons but had to explain that their serial numbers were assigned independently of the model so the first Rushton did not have serial number one.

Benson

[Dave Osborn]

Brad,
Don't forget, I'm here for ya when it's time to canvas the old girl.
Maybe we could make a chapter event out of it.........
Dave

[Splinter]

If you need another pair of hands, I'm willing. Let me know. Splinter

[bredlo]

Dave n' Splinter - you guys are awesome. I really appreciate it, and just may take you up on the offer. I don't know the first thing about "come alongs," and finding a pair of pickups in my neighborhood isn't gonna be easy either. :)

I'll keep everyone posted!

[Splinter]

How soon you going to be ready to "stretch and squeeze"? Splinter

[bredlo]

Great question - Perhaps June?

First, I have a few broken ribs, and a few small holes in the planking. After examining the canoe upside down (with no skin on) the other night, I noticed a sharp bulge where it seems a couple consecutive ribs are cracked.

So I think getting some more experienced help is in order at this point - I want to learn to do this the right way. I haven't seen any profiles listing members in the immediate area around Chicago, so I may try and haul this thing over to the Chicagoland Canoe Base for Ralph Frese to take a look, if I can't find help that can come to me.

I also need new outwales, so I may order them from Old Town via REI (saw that worked for someone in another thread). It's cheaper and easier than buying and learning to use a router table right now, my woodworking skills are pretty limited.

Can't wait to stretch n' squeeze, though!! What a great point to be at in a project.

[Dave Osborn]

Heard a rumor that Ralph was closing Chicagoland Canoe Base. Does anybody know if it is true?

[bredlo]

It's true, and heard it straight from the horse's mouth. I'd be nervous to mention it without his permission, except that he had the shop listed for sale on Craigslist, of all places.

It'll be really sad if this shop ends up closing for lack of an experienced person that loves canoeing. The shop is located in one of the only (perhaps lone) remaining blacksmith shop in the Chicago area, and the whole store just has a great feel to it. He told me nobody with the necessary interest in the history and construction has stepped forward.

Perhaps someone will before Ralph is forced to let it all scatter into the wind in some big sale...